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Post by kanshu on Aug 17, 2004 13:28:15 GMT -5
;D I've seen these two mixed up on a regular base, so I thought I'd toss in the definitions here: Yaoi Shounen-ai And how it's handled in Japan:Additions? Disagree? Other definitions? Feel free to comment or add them.
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Post by Me-Nuriko on Aug 17, 2004 15:15:19 GMT -5
As far as I can see that was a pretty good sum up.
I've always thought of yaoi as male/male sex stories, and shounen-ai as male/male romance stories.
And yuri (or is it yuuri?) as female/female sex stories.
I only wonder, a story with a good plot, where graphical M/M sex is written as a natural part of the story, that must be considered shounen-ai, then?
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Post by iamzuul on Aug 17, 2004 16:47:19 GMT -5
I only wonder, a story with a good plot, where graphical M/M sex is written as a natural part of the story, that must be considered shounen-ai, then? That's a good point to bring up. I mean, if there are two boys getting it in on in chapter 13 of a 20 chapter story, then you certainly can't call it a gen fic - but at the same time, there's obviously more going on that just sex. And if the story doesn't focus specifically on the relationship between the two guys (like in 'A Simple Kiss'), or makes the love a strong part of the story (like in 'Cho Hakkai: Murderer?') without making it the focus, can it even be considered romance? o.0? I always kinda thought of PWPs as yaoi. Anything that involved a great deal of plot, no matter how graphic the sex was, was always shonen-ai to me. And the sappy stuff was just plain out-and-out romance. ^_^
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Post by cesmith on Aug 17, 2004 16:52:24 GMT -5
Two other terms that are constantly used are Lemon and Lime. Please tell me what these terms mean.
Since some shounen-ai can be pornographic , according to the definition, I guess you would be right.
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Post by kanshu on Aug 18, 2004 0:10:15 GMT -5
Okay... I found this one on aestheticism.com (graciously stolen without permission ), and this is how things are "termed" in the homeland of anime&manga, Japan. After reading this, and especially after reading that the term "shonen-ai" refers to pedophiles, I wonder if it wouldn't be better to use the Japanese term of "Boy's Love" instead. (Unless you write Konzen&chibiGoku sex scenes... because that is pedophile material. ) However, if you go by the above "Western" definitions, yu can have shonen-ai with a sex scene in it, if it's just "a scene" amongst many others. I'd suggest to add the 'lime/lemon" label then, though. Oh yeah, one final note... "Yaoi" is to be rated NC 17, by default, due to the nature of it.... "Boy's Love" (or, if you go by the westerner term, shonen-ai) can range from G to NC-17.
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Post by Me-Nuriko on Aug 18, 2004 0:38:23 GMT -5
Confusing. If someone calls the story shounen-ai, it could mean it's a pedophile-story, or a romance story, or a sex story, or even a 'smarm' story. Depending on which definition that someone is using. Japanese or Western, old or new. It would be easier, if there was only one term for each genre. Lime and lemon. I'm not sure I'm right, but after reading different stories with those labels, I think 'lime' means kisses or maybe a little more, while 'lemon' means sex. I also think it has nothing to do whether the couple is m/m, f/m, or f/f. (Or if they are having a triangle or whatever.)
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Post by kanshu on Aug 18, 2004 1:22:14 GMT -5
*points Me-Nuriko over to the lemon/lime thread next door. * But you're right about the confusion. Personally, I draw the lines like this: Yaoi - m/m porn shonen-ai, boy's love - everything love m/m that isn't yaoi BUT where at least one character has a sexual interest in the other, even if it's not acted upon smarm - love without sexual interest of any kind (no matter what gender the people are). I really love the definition below. It's from non-anime fandom and therefore uses 'slash': The article is great, btw. I strongly suggest it for reading.
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Post by Me-Nuriko on Aug 18, 2004 1:42:51 GMT -5
Next door Well, I've always had a bad sense of direction. ;D I do love smarm. Some of the earliest fanfics I 'wrote' (imagined inside my head), were for 'Alias Smith & Jones'. I loved (still do) their relationship, and how they did everything for each other, but I never imagined them in bed toghether, or even kissing. And I can still not think about them in that way. 'Smarm' is dangerous though. I've lived all my life with a longing for someone to share that kind of relationship with. Never found it. Not many do, I guess. That's probably why we settle for sex instead. Maybe that's why there are more writers that write sex stories, than there are writers writing smarm stories. Maybe for some people it hurt too much, writing about something you're longing for but never will have. Or am I getting too philosophical here? What do you think?
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Post by kanshu on Aug 18, 2004 2:05:38 GMT -5
Naw, you're not getting too philosophical at all. I know that the smarm-type of relationship is possible, because I had the luck to experience it with two persons. But because as humans we are usually run over by our hormones, it easily drones out the deeper aspects. A smarm-type of relations grows slowly, never over night. It's tested by the fires of hell... You never "fall head over heels" into such a relationship. It's not the body that dictates the action, but the heart and mind. Basically, it's the relationships/friendships that survive all troubles, even after years. Because reliability has been proven, the 'be there' happens, and you're also not on pink cloud nine as far as the quirks are concerned.
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Post by Me-Nuriko on Aug 18, 2004 2:17:12 GMT -5
You're lucky.
Believe me, even if I haven't experienced the smarm relationship myself, I know, have always known what you wrote above is true. My heart tells me that. But I've been disappointed a little too many times.
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Post by kanshu on Aug 18, 2004 2:26:29 GMT -5
Oh, I have been disappointed by my friends, too. Even by those two. But thing is, I probably disappointed them as often. That's why it is called "love". Because, on the long run, it's worth it... and 'who is without fault throws the first stone'. I'm sure you will find this kind of love for your life, too. It just takes time, because there are tons of people on this planet. It's kind of like finding good fanfics - you have to go through tons of stuff to find one jewel. And now, I'll better start working before I lose myself in sentimentalism. See you guys tonight.
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Post by Me-Nuriko on Aug 18, 2004 5:49:10 GMT -5
Hope you are right. Anyway, 'we got to play with the cards we're dealt', as they say. And I love, really love, good smarm stories. They make me feel warm and fuzzy. That's why I love 'Simply Love' and 'Slaves of Fate'. X-parrot has written some really good smarm stories, too. I saw you had her 'Darkness Visible' on your 'Favorite stories' list. That story is very good, but she has written a lot of other very good stories, too. Have you read them? I have never met X-parrot, but she's a friend of a friend of mine. And from another angle she's also a friend of a friend of a friend of mine. ;D Argh, guess I'm in the wrong thread again.^^;;
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Post by cesmith on Aug 18, 2004 9:35:58 GMT -5
OptiMoose- You always sum things up so beautifully.
Me-Nuriko- Not too philosophical, but it makes me appreciate my husband all the more. After twenty-six years of marriage he really is my best friend.
I'm confused, and not confused. I understand the definitions, but don't understand why we would use a Western definition for a Japanese term. If Shonen-ai truely refers to pedophiles, I definitly prefer Boy's love. Having worked with four year olds for twenty plus years, even the though is beyond repulsive, and I know I can't personally use that term anymore.
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Post by Me-Nuriko on Aug 18, 2004 10:08:22 GMT -5
I guess we Westerner think it's cool to use Japanese terms, and when someone starts using a word or an expression, others use it, too, even if the meaning is not what we think it is. In GetBackers, the Japanese version, there was a side bar note where one of the creators had used the expression 'Boys Love', but when a Japanese speaking Swedish fangirl translated the side bar, she said shounen-ai. So the Japanese use the English expression, and we use the Japanese expression. cesmith: You're lucky, too. I do love my husband, but we don't share many interests. Oh, I have to ask. Are you the cesmith that has been reviewing my stories at animespiral?
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Post by kanshu on Aug 18, 2004 10:39:36 GMT -5
Me-Nuriko: I fully agree with you... it's the "exotic" , that illusion of using a proper term, that is so tempting. Like, they call a cell phone "Handy" here. x-parrot... of course I've read her stuff! I recently started reding her One Piece stories, and she writes my fav One Piece character Zorro quite wonderful I still have to update my "fav stories" list sometime. cesmith: It's true what you say about the usage... And I understand your thoughts about pedophiles. (And no offense to authors who write the stuff 'for fun', but I *do* think KonzenxChibi-Goku yaoi-fics take the "meant to be together" a tad too far. He's a small kid, for crying out loud!) BTW, you might find the pedophile element pretty often in fanfic, so be warned. There are a lot of authors who pair up an adult with a pre-teen, and it's not because they try to deal with own traumata. Harry Potter fandom has a lot of that stuff, i.e. HarryxSnape fics that focus on the first two books. And I won't even go into the entire kids-do-it-with-kids section, which also seems to have a huge followship in certain fandoms. But that's just a personal warning there. Different people might experience things differently. I think I'll use the Japanese term only from now on.
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