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Post by kanshu on Sept 28, 2004 11:26:13 GMT -5
Have to catch up a lot, yeap. Me-Nuriko: I can understand that you are angry about how women are/were seen... But seriously, what did you expect? That's the flip side of the coin - by making real women "unequal" or even "dirty" in that male only society, the only acceptable relationship would be one with a male, but it had to be an underage boy - styled up as a woman...
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Post by Me-Nuriko on Sept 28, 2004 12:06:25 GMT -5
Nah, I didn't expect anything else. It's just that I tend to not think about it unless it's necessary, and everytime I'm reminded I get both sad and angry. But I do find the topic fascinating, and... ...this, on the other hand: ...the only acceptable relationship would be one with a male, but it had to be an underage boy - styled up as a woman... One could argue that this says something totally ridiculous about that male society. ;D
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Post by Me-Nuriko on Sept 28, 2004 14:10:40 GMT -5
I think I should add that the reason I got so angry about that kind of thinking about women, is that when I was only fifteen my whole life took an altogether new turn because of a man that thought women should know their place and not trying to get an career.
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Post by cesmith on Sept 28, 2004 17:30:47 GMT -5
It's hard NOT to judge another society by your standards. Just because something was acceptable does not necessarily make it right, it just meant the strong imposed their rule over the weak. Sometimes the "dirty female" just seems like an excuse why men who deny themselves women compensated in other ways. Isn't that the problem the Catholic Church is facing in the US? It's not only Japan that used young boys this way.
I've been lucky that I've been free to choose whether I wanted a career or not and parents that encouaged my decision. The only time I ever had a problem was when my guidance councelor told me being a teacher wasn't a good enough job for a woman.
Now I encourage little girls to try to be whatever they want. Heaven help the little boy who tells a little girl she can't do something. I also tell the girls that boys can too be nurses, ballet dancers and play with dolls. Where else can they learn to be good Daddys?
All of the children's Moms work and take care of them and they should appreciate the work BOTH their parents do.
Dangerous topic for me. Two subjects I feel strongly about, equal opportunities for the sexes and sexual abuse of children.
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Post by kanshu on Sept 29, 2004 0:20:32 GMT -5
Me-Nuriko: That kind of attitude sucks. I'm glad that you managed to find your own way.
cesmith: That's what I'm thinking, too. However, it's one thing to do it and know it's wrong, and another thing to do it and be reinforced by society... And I really wonder (no offense meant), how much of that "females are dirty" is still stuck in the minds of those who create the boy's love mangaka and fanbase on both sides of the pond? I mean, it's still idealized "pretty (girlish) boys are the best together, death to all females who want them" - I rarely see anything that has to do with normal homosexuality. Just my two cents. No offense meant or intended.
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Post by cesmith on Sept 29, 2004 5:56:46 GMT -5
The Catholic Church reinforces it by it's silence and cover ups. In it's own way it is a society of it's own.
.Just as in any fiction, whether it is homosexual or heterosexual, there is the idealized participants. You don't see a 40 year old, overwieght man and woman in a heterosexual sex scene, why should the standards be any different for the Homosexual relationship. Fiction is what the writer sees as perfection, how they would like it to be. Very few people will fantasize about less than a perfect body. Also, in the fiction, we are talking about 2 consensual, adult participants.
Normal homosexuality for the people I know means getting up each day, going to work, raising your children, and protecting yourself, your significant other and your children from a society that still passes judgement on you based on your sexual preference.
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Post by Me-Nuriko on Sept 29, 2004 6:29:30 GMT -5
The question is, Did I find my own way after meeting with that man? I didn't get a 'proper' education until only a few years ago, because of that man. Instead I got married at nineteen and had my first child when I was twenty, and then became a housewife. I don't say this was a bad life, I wouldn't trade my four children for anything in the world, but it was definitely not what I had in mind before I ran into that man. (Who was my Math teacher.) You're quite vulnerable when you're fifteen and I hadn't enough confidence in myself to follow my own dreams. Enough of this whining. I love life, and have always tried to make the best of it, whatever came in my way. In Sweden there is a festival every summer called Stockholm Gay Pride Festival. This summer it was opened by one of our bishops (female). That doesn't mean that it's safe to declare your sexual orientation in Sweden, but at least it's officially encouraged. (So long as it's consensual of course, and has nothing to do with children.)
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Post by kanshu on Sept 29, 2004 7:27:54 GMT -5
cesmith: I actually thought more along the lines of making the relationship between the beautiful boys the ideal for girls... just like the girls really don't belong in there. If that makes any sense. Me-Nuriko: *huggles* I'm glad you found the confidence to stand up and fight for yourself. That must have been pretty hard... going up against a figure of authority and all. I can sympathize, though for a different reason. The gays and lesbians celebrate Christopher Street day here in Germany with parades and stuff. Ever sind homosexuals can get legally married (around which a lot of discussion ensued, of course), it very very very slowly gets better. But there's still a lot of prejudice in people's minds.
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Post by cesmith on Sept 29, 2004 20:06:09 GMT -5
OptiMoose, I'm confused about what you mean. Do you mean that the way the m/m relationship is, being more equal, is the type of relationship girls should seek?
Of course females wouldn't be needed in a gay relationship, except as a friend. Not unless the guys were Bi-sexual and not very commited to their current partner.
Homosexual marriages are not legal in most US states. As a protest to this, many Mayors in cities were preforming marriage ceremonies illegally and then being arrested themselves for breaking the law. Not much came of this, except for publicity for the Mayors themselves.
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Post by kanshu on Sept 30, 2004 3:18:09 GMT -5
Ahhh... Me and word. Yes, by idealizing the m/m as "more equal, the ultimative and best", in connection with the entire crapload of "girls are dirty" - I understand that it doesn't have much to do with how m/m relationships are treated in real life, but it's just like you train females to think of their own relationships as 'bad/unequal', and that they will never have a chance to get into an equal relationship with a guy, because they are males. I don't know if that makes any sense at all. It's pretty hard to get across what I mean without sounding whacko.
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Post by cesmith on Sept 30, 2004 16:31:41 GMT -5
I'm not sure that all the m/m relationships in fanfiction ARE equal. I see the Gojyo/Hakkai one that way, that's why I like it so much, but I'm not sure I would feel the same about the Sanzo/Goku or Sanzo/Hakkai pairings. In these, I see Sanzo as the dominate partner. The Sanzo/Gojyo pairing is the one you would use as an example to your daughter of one relationship to avoid, FAR from perfect.
I can't speak for other fandoms since I have really only read Saiyuki pairings, even the reccommended readings of other Anime were without actual pairings.
I guess I'm just looking at it as portraying a RELATIONSHIP that is equal, not so much that it is m/m or female/male. It just happens to be m/m.
I guess part of my approach is I have never been made to feel the "girls are dirty" mentality. I was raised in a very equal household, where in many ways my Mom had the last say in most things. It was always assumed I would go straight to college. I think they would have been upset if I hadn't wanted to. When I started dating, I always did look for an equal relationship, I wanted to be treated the way I was accustomed to. When I married, I finished school and worked. Had my children and worked at home with childcare. We were constantly adjusting the balances, but even in the worst of times in our relationship, it was essentially equal.
To me it's a given that a relationship should be equal. Hopefully I have 4 kids who will also believe that. So far 3 of them have met partners-to-be that seem equal in the relationship.
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Post by kanshu on Jan 26, 2005 17:24:56 GMT -5
Here's an interesting essay I found: www.trickster.org/symposium/symp36.htmIt's written by a BL/slash author, and it brings up a few points that could make the one or other BL/slash story better.
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Post by narrizan on Jun 23, 2005 22:26:32 GMT -5
hello there folks i hope you don't mind me...i actually feel like i'm intruding on a private conversation here...but i just wanted to say that his thread has been very enlightening for me to read. it had cleared up quite a few things for me as to terms and definitions... and it was just also enlightening for me to read on views of relationships whether they be real life or not. i will most probably read it back again time and again. because it has a mineful of information that i probably did not absorb all at once. the other thing that i just wanted to say is that (although i'm not sure if this is the place to say it) i'm lucky with my husband and no it isn't always equal as such ... but we're happy and we make it work and we have been blessed by it. we did start out with similar interests (which is how we met) but we are changing as people all the time and we have managed to adapt to each other's changes, and now though our interest differ quite a bit we have managed to make our life together work ... and sometimes it isn't really always something so high and flounciful as love ... and never underestimate the power of a true smile and genuine laughter. and i have to agree with cesmith that i see that G/H pairing as one on 'equal' footing, although they are probably wrong for each other they make it work somehow... i'm not really sure how to take the Sanzo/Goku pairing although Goku is 18 he is still very much the child, but having seen the Kami-sama arc and how some fanfic authors have extrapolated from that and have written using a more mature Goku. that relationship is probably is workable. hmmm, as to the Sanzo/Hakkai one i think its very tenuous if one is there at all and yes I'll have to keep Sanzo/Gojyo in mind when i explain to my girl when she's of age on the relationship to avoid. and once again i apologise for the intrusion, but thank you all muchly for the insights, i am sure i am not the only one who has gained from reading this thread.
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Post by cesmith on Jun 24, 2005 0:39:11 GMT -5
narrizan, not a private conversation, so no need to apologize. Just goes back to the early days of the board when there weren't as many members. ;D
I hope that anyone who sees an older thread that they are interested in feels free to jump in, and if you see something that interests you in the middle of an existing thread, never hesitate to comment/question, even if the topic seems to have moved on.
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Post by kanshu on Jun 24, 2005 1:52:03 GMT -5
Ah, narrizan, don't worry. this board started out with just a handful of people, and so there are not that many participants in a discussion, just as cesmith said. We all tried to get the most out of the topic, while still remaining fair to the other's opinion. For me, this thread helped to understand a few things and clear up some problems I had. As for Hakkai/Gojyo - that's one potential pairing I don't see as equal. Hakkai's a very dominating character, and it shows again and again by the way he's able to control Gojyo with a single glance. Yes, Hakkai's very submissivly caring on the outside, but... I can't get rid of the feeling that their relationship would be the type where one (Hakkai) would be 'abusively' (not neccesarily violently) controlling Gojyo. Outside of that, I don't see anything going on between any of them... but then, that's what the entire 'slash' business was invented for, yes? ;-)
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