The difference between Shonen-ai & Yaoi

[cesmith]

I really do like challenges.

Personal opinion here. I do not believe that someone who is in a friendship relationship (even one where they are willing to die for each other) would take the leap and get bitten by the "Coming Out" bug. Entering a Homosexual relationship, (or a Heterosexual relationship, for that matter), requires a higher level of emotional attatchment than that found in most friendships. However, as the friendship continues to grow, over time, as they begin to rely on each other more for emotional support, for advice, and to get through the disappointments of the past and present, in short, as they begin to share each others lives without realizing how involved they are with each other, the friendship turns into Smarm. A much higher level of commitment and involvement with the other character than friendship provides. Add to this more time, more involvemet, more emotional bonding and you might get the stirrings of true love and desire. Next, the character might start to question his/her sexuality, there would be denial. Whether they come out or not would depend on their acceptance or rejection of their feelings. Then you have to have the other character coming to the same realization. Then one or both finally act on the emotions that have been building up. It isn't a matter of suddenly coming out. It's a long, slow process that sneaks up and bites you on the ass without your knowing it.

What could trigger the final admittance of feelings? That would be something different and unique to each story.

In Saiyuki, it could be a near death experience, fear of loosing them forever. It could be feeling helpless that they are always sad when it rains and want to change it.
It could be the laugh you share and realize how much you care.

Friendship + time + Smarm + Time + Commitment + Love + Time + Self-evauluation + Time + final trigger = coming out.

OptiMoose: In the PWP, h/c Mary Sue and OMC-HC section it says you posted at 00:26:58. Inside in the difference between Shonen-ai and Yaoi it lists Me. I'm going to modify this so I can see it it changes.

[kanshu]

Beats me...

On a general note: Please post any board problems in the Helpdesk section. I know it's inconvinients, but it helps me keeping track of things, and maybe help other visitors who run into the same thing. Thanks!

[cesmith]

Sorry about posting in the wrong place. My first experience with message boards, so I'll learn.

[kanshu]

That's okay. It's not like there is some capital punishment for posting off topic. If there was, I would be dead by now.

[kanshu]

I wasn't sure if this belongs into the Japan thread, but hten figures that this is better placed here:

I found the following article quite interesting when it comes to understanding what the roots of boy's love in Japan are.
www.westernbuddhistreview.com/vol3/homosexuality.html

The organisation of Buddhist monasteries into sexually-segregated communities, often set in the remote countryside or mountains, encouraged the development of a specific style of homoeroticism revolving around young acolytes or chigo. The youngest acolytes, called kasshiki could be as little as five years old and were not required to shave their hair like monks but wore it ‘shoulder length and modishly’. They decorated their faces with powder and ‘dressed in finely wrought silken robes and vividly colored variegated under robes.’ Colcutt points out the problems caused by boy-love in Zen monasteries of the Muromachi period (1333-1568), commenting that ‘The presence of large numbers of children in the monastery could adversely affect standards of discipline.’ The result was that ‘gorgeously arrayed youths became the centre of admiration in lavish monastic ceremonies that were far in spirit from the simple, direct search for self advocated by the early Ch’an (Zen) masters’. Monastic legislators fought the same losing battle as the shogunate did with the kabuki theatres, when it attempted to limit the ostentatious dress on stage. Regulations repeatedly warn against the use of certain fabrics and colours but they seem to have been implemented with some reluctance, if at all.

and

Buddhism’s flexibility with regard to sexuality, as in other aspects of human nature, derives from the doctrine of hooben (Sanskrit upaaya) or ‘skilful means’ wherein actions are not judged in and of themselves but in terms of their motivation and outcome. Hence, even sexual attraction, which in early Buddhism is considered a defilement, can be used as a means to communicate the Buddhist truth or Dharma. Given Buddhism’s prioritisation of intention and consequence over the act itself it was possible for monks (for whom sexual engagement with women was forbidden) to justify (or perhaps rationalize) their sexual engagement with youths in terms of creating a deeper or more lasting spiritual bond.

Other than acolytes in training to be monks, there were many other young boys in Buddhist monasteries because they served as schools for the children of the elite. Frederic comments that: ‘These children were cherished by the monks and priests, to whom they served as pages. Their clothes were sumptuous, they had their eyebrows shaved and were made up like women. They were the pride of the monasteries which often boasted of possessing the prettiest and most talented pages in the district’. However, homoerotically admiring a beautiful page boy from a distance is rather different from taking him off to one’s bedroom. To what extent, then, did the ‘homoerotic’ atmosphere I have suggested existed in male monastic environments actually result in homosexual behaviour? Leupp reads the very large number of references in literary and artistic sources which depict actual sexual relations between monks and acolytes as reflecting their widespread practice

and

Similar to the traditional formulation of male-male love in the monasteries where a young acolyte was loved by his preceptor, the romantic picture of male love given in these texts idealizes the love between a youth, termed wakashu (a boy prior to his coming-of-age-ceremony who still has unshaven forelocks) and an older lover or nenja (literally ‘he who remembers or thinks’ (about his lover)). The boys are represented as beautiful, graceful and charming whereas the older lovers are fierce, loyal and courageous. The sexual aspect of the relationships is downplayed. Rather, the educational and nurturing aspects of the relationship are highlighted. Schalow comments ‘They were not primarily sexual relationships but included education, social backing and emotional support. Together they vowed to uphold samurai ideals. Samurai status was thus strengthened by a well-chosen match’. Same-sex love between samurai adults and youths was similar to that between monks and acolytes in that the sexual aspect of the relationship was considered to be a temporary phase in an on-going lifetime friendship (indeed, the attraction between two lovers in the present life was often understood to derive from the karmic effect of a past-life connection). These relationships were not clandestine but openly acknowledged and subject to a strict code of practice. Unlike in ancient Greece, which also supported homoerotic friendships between older and younger men, the sexual aspect of these friendships could be alluded to and did not bring shame upon the younger (sexually passive) partner so long as such relations came to an end with his coming of age.

While woman are considered 'dirty':

The sutra argues that women are evil because their menstrual blood has polluted both earth and water making these elements impure. It continues ‘(s)ince women, by nature, soil the Gods and Buddhas, they will all fall into the Blood Pond Hell after they die’. Women’s natural ‘defilement’ was therefore commonly used in apologia for homosexual sex, as in the Denbu monogatari (Tale of a boor), which, as Faure points out, is more about ‘the merits and demerits of women’ than it is about the advantages of male same-sex love.

and

The generally low position of women in Japanese society and the presence of nativist, Buddhist and Confucian discourses all linking them to sex and pollution meant that ‘there was never a trace in Japan of the exalted awe and adoration accorded to women in the European tradition of chivalry and courtly love’. That women were held in low esteem seems to further have encouraged the development of homoerotic traditions in the monasteries where spiritual beings came increasingly to be represented as divine boys. As Faure points out ‘in as much as women meant defilement, by rejecting women--even if for young boys--monks thought that they were rejecting defilement’. Monks could court chigo or young acolytes without the dangers of pollution or childbirth, and in the absence of a discourse which defined same-sex sexuality as effeminising, could maintain their identity and integrity as men. By the time of increased samurai ascendancy from the thirteenth century, there was already a well-established homoerotic tradition in Japanese monasteries in which boys, not women, were constructed as fitting objects for adult male desire, a tradition which was well suited to the masculine ideals of an increasingly militaristic society. Blomberg notes that ‘(h)omosexual relationships between an older and a younger bushi (warrior) who were attached to one another as knight and page, were virtually the rule in feudal Japan’, attributing them to the ‘very close bonds...commonly found in men’s societies in many cultures’. Not unlike other warrior societies, particularly ancient Greece, in Japan ‘(t)he love of women (was) regarded as disgraceful and a sign of weakness, whereas the love of men (was) virile and honourable’

[Salmastryon]

Thank-you OptiMoose. I knew about the blood taboo from the Shinto religion, but not how it tied in with Buddhism. I am also familiar with homoeroticism in Kabuki and the mentor page relationship in budo, but hadn't put the pieces together with the monks.

Brings a whole new light to Shuei and Kouryuu.

[kanshu]

Well... don't get me wrong, but the thought of having young children "used" that way, even if it was "holy" doesn't make those monks or samurais any better than a child abuser in the western world.

I mean, m/m relationships that just grow normally are one thing, but having it as a "social requirement" is a completely different matter.

But I guess I'm not neutral on the topic. Might be I'm all off the scale here...

[Me-Nuriko]

Very, very interesting.

What's make me sad, is how the women were looked upon. (I can't help it, it makes me feel angry, too.)

[Salmastryon]

*nods*

I know the feeling. If it makes you feel better, during the Heian period high class woman had a better place in society. Despite the fact that the men had multiple wifes, each woman had her own house and the man entered the household of his first wife. At anyrate woman held property, were reknown writers and while not official held positions of power in the government. Of course things changed later. *sighs* I forget whether the feet breaking was Japanese or Chinese.

Thing to remember when reading anything about woman in Eastern societies is the baises and viewpoint of the writer. Many western writers and feminists have a slanted view on power and position. Using today's societal standards on a situations of he past is often unfare. Also, one needs to keep in mind the target audience and motives of the author. A stout feminist is not going to paint a nice picture of a society where a woman ruled the home and family. Er...I'm wandering off the subject again. Can you tell I majored in History in College? ^^;;;

[kanshu]

The fun thing is that in Bhuddist monestaries outside of Japan, the practice never took hold.

Salma: I don't know if the relationship between Shurei and Kouryuu was one of "the kind"... Personally, I don't think so. But that's just me

As for women - are you sure that it is a thing of the past? I sometimes get the feeling that women are still considered "dirty".

[Salmastryon]

Heian period is past. Before Samurai. Time of Murasaki etc. As for the attitude towards woman today in Japan. It has gotten better but it is hard to be a career woman. I'm trying to take this into account in the WK fanfic I'm writing. Even though Asuka is a nurse the fact that she still works full time after she's married means she's got some spine.

Sorry If I mislead you into thinking woman were liberated in Japan ^^;

[kanshu]

Modern Japan...

Today, homosexuality in Japan is largely conflated with cross-dressing and transgenderism due to the prominence of cross-dressed individuals featured in the media and the entertainment world. Thus, homosexual men are understood to be okama (literally a 'pot' but meaning something similar to the English word 'queen') and are usually represented as cross-dressed and effeminate. The use of the term okama derives from the slang usage of the term to refer to the buttocks and thereby to anal sex which is considered to be the definitive sexual act engaged in by homosexual men. However, use of this term is extremely loose and it can be used to describe a man who displays any transgender attribute. For instance, an article in the current-affairs magazine AERA (1 March 1999) on men who adopt female names and personae in order to participate in women-only Internet chat lines, describes such men as netto okama (Net okama), although here there is no relation between the adoption of a female name and same-sex attraction. Okama are regularly featured on TV comedy shows in Japan and can also be found in Japan's mizu shoobai where they serve as entertainers in okama bars serving a straight (and predominantly male) clientele.

Japanese homosexual women are sometimes described using another 'pot' metaphor, onabe (meaning 'pan') a parallel term to okama which only has meaning in relation to it. However, this term is less well known than the English loan word rezu (from lesbian). Onabe are represented as the opposite of okama, being masculine in both dress and demeanour. Yet this term, too, is difficult to pin down. For instance, an article in the magazine Da buinchi (Da Vinci; March 1999), describes the relationship between a nuuyhaafu ('new half': male-to-female transsexual) and an onabe. But it is not possible to translate onabe as 'lesbian' in this context, for, as the person identified as an onabe explains, s/he clearly understands him/herself to be a man, albeit without a penis. One further term connected with the 'pot' metaphor is the word okoge which is literally the burnt rice which sticks to the bottom of the pot and is a term for 'fag hag' (straight women who like to hang around gay men) but this is not generally understood, despite the popular 1992 movie of that name (which I discuss later in the paper).


The idea that same-sex attraction necessarily involves some kind of transgenderism or desire to be like or even become the opposite of one's biological sex is constantly reinforced by Japanese media which discuss homosexuality and transgenderism in the same context. For example, in the same edition of the popular magazine Da buinchi (March 1999) discussed above, there is an article on cross-dressing boy bands entitled 'Do you like men who are too beautiful?' The lead article includes interviews with some of the cross-dressed performers and goes into the history of cross-dressing in the Japanese music and theatre industry. Given the number of katakana (an indigenous alphabet for transcribing foreign words) terms introduced in these articles, the writers provide a glossary entitled 'Words to help you understand individuals who have gone beyond their sex (sei wo koeta hito bito).' The first word defined is gei (gay) which is glossed as 'male homosexual' (dansei dooseiaisha); other words describing male homosexuals such as homo and okama are described as 'offensive.' Also defined are lezubian ('female homosexual'), nonke (a gay slang term for 'straight,' meaning literally 'no feeling,') is defined as 'heterosexual' (iseiaisha), toransusekusharu ('transsexual,' or persons who want to change their biological sex through an operation), toransujendaa ('transgender,' or persons who express themselves through the gender opposite to their biological sex but do not want an operation), toransubuesutaito ('transvestite,' or persons who want to dress as the opposite sex because of a 'fetish'), and nyuuhaafu (male-to-female transsexuals or male-to-female transgendered individuals who have 'come out' (kamu auto) and work in the sex industry (fuuzoku). In this list it is not at all clear how gay men and lesbians want to 'go beyond' their sex or what, if anything, they have to do with transgendered individuals. The boys who cross-dress professionally as part of their stage act (described as imeeji kei, or 'image group') state that their cross-dressing has nothing to do with same-sex desire and the couple described as an onabe and a nyuuhaafu are not 'homosexual' but transsexual. It is therefore not clear why the subject of homosexuality should come up at all in this context.

And on how women idealize the homosexual relationship:

Japanese women's interest in male homosexual love stories is not a recent phenomenon but can be traced to developments in women's comics (manga) in the early 70s. The manga industry in Japan is immense, 470 million copies of various manga being published every year which appeal to different demographic groups: school boys, university students, businessmen, female office workers and housewives. In manga directed at 'young women' (so-called shoojo manga) love between 'beautiful boys' (bishoonen) has been a recurrent theme. Although these stories are told using the 'comic' format, referring to them as 'comics' fails to communicate their artistic quality or the depth of feeling they can arouse in their readers. Midori Matsui[15] quite rightly refers to the early boy-love manga (which run into many volumes) as 'Bildungsroman' and these texts should be taken seriously as major products of Japanese women's culture. From the very beginning these manga depicted 'bed scenes' (beddo shiinu) where homosexual sex was implied and the late 70s saw women writers become increasingly audacious in their representation, not simply of homoerotic attraction, but of homosexual sex. As Sandra Buckley points out 'for a period in the 1970s the comics-for-girls were a major testing ground for the censorship laws' and the sex they depicted was not heterosexual but homosexual.


Although the boy-love genre in girls' comics has undergone a number of transformations, it is still very much alive today. Young women have, since the mid-80s, become increasingly involved in manga production themselves. In the 80s, huge komiketto (comic markets) held all over Japan became venues for young amateur artists to distribute their work. From 1990-1992 when such markets were at their peak of popularity up to a quarter of a million people would attend each one and, of these, seventy-five per cent were young women. Although in 1993 women's manga represented only 8.8 per cent of all commercially published manga, the actual number of titles published is still very large because of the sheer volume of Japan's manga industry. Furthermore, the number of amateur women manga artists vastly outnumbered that of men.
These amateur women artists pioneered a new genre of manga which came to be termed YAOI. This is an acronym formed from the first letters of the Japanese words YAma nashi (no climax), Ochi nashi (no point) and Imi nashi (no meaning) and refers to those boy-love stories in which there is less romantic plot development and more emphasis placed on the sex scenes between the male characters. This parallels the PWP (Plot, What Plot?) genre of 'slash' fiction developed by amateur American women writers which imagines sexual scenarios taking place between the male heroes of popular TV dramas. However, unlike slash which is an amateur genre distributed privately by fans through self-produced 'zines' or on the Internet, YAOI comics are also commercially produced and on sale in bookstores throughout Japan where they are sold without restriction to their target audience of young women (from their mid-teens onward). The number of commercially produced YAOI manga is, however, small in relation to the vast number of privately circulated YAOI comics which are disseminated both in printed form and, increasingly, on the Internet.


However, I would describe the romantic and sexual relationships in these stories as 'homosexual' deploying the inverted commas to show that what is being described here is a very specific construction or, better, 'fantasy' of what male homosexual love means. Not only are the male characters not supposed to represent 'gay men,' they do not really represent 'men' either, in that they are referred to as bishoonen or 'beautiful boys/youths.' They are drawn in such a way as to suggest an androgynous ideal: they have tall, slender bodies, high cheek bones and pointed chins, wide eyes and long flowing hair. Also, they behave in a rather 'feminine' manner, expressing the emotionality and vulnerability often associated with female characters in more mainstream fiction.

Source: wwwsshe.murdoch.edu.au/intersections/issue3/mclelland2.html

[Me-Nuriko]

Yes, it's important to remember not to judge everything from todays western point of view.

The Swedish Universities are not built up the same way as the Americans, but I guess you could say I minored in pedagogy. One of the courses there was one about gender roles. That's a subject that I find very interesting. (And I'm not a men hater ) The course was mainly about today, and in Sweden, but of course some historical insights were added.

As for History I've always loved the subject, but haven't studied it on University level.

[kanshu]

And what the homosexual males think about it:

Gay men tend not to identify with the beautiful youths in women's manga and feel that these figures are figments of women's imaginations. One gay man interviewed in Yajima Masami's collection of gay life stories says that these images had a negative effect upon him when he encountered them in high-school. He got the impression from women's comics that 'being gay meant being a smart and beautiful member of the elite' and that homosexuals 'must be cute and pretty.' As he was neither cute nor beautiful, he worried 'what will become of me?' Another of Yajima's informants says that he was familiar with homosexuality from childhood and that although he considered it 'taken-for-granted' (atarimae) because of its widespread representation in women's comics, the plot lines suggested to him that it was 'an unforgivable but beautiful relationship.' The highly idealised 'homosexual' characters and fanciful plots in women's comics therefore do little to foster a sense of recognition or identity in gay male readers.

Same source as above.

And from a different source:

TODAY:
1) Society:
When it comes to the homosexuality in Japan, primarily the sense of shame is very strong for Japanese ,even though western culture is a guilt culture. The Buddhist religion or the Japanese ethics don't teach guilt, impose shame on us, not guilt but shame is much more than guilt. I think it comes from a traditional common sense ,that has a vested interest in group harmony ,holds minority people accountable to integrate within the small Japanese society. There are no specific guidelines for gay in Japan.


2) Life:
Heterosexual people in Japan believe that a male loves a female and the sexual preference of gay youth will turn around near future from my point of view. Some queer dudes are obsessed with such kind of a classic idea before they know that's not. So many straight people in Japan know so little- just like gay men or youth may act as QUEEN. They don't believe in even the existence of gay people or I might say they won't believe in so. I can say basically gay men in Japan marry and spend life with their family, at the same time they hang around cruising places, though the family members, siblings, or friends eventually don't know what the gay men are doing at all. If Japanese gaymen tell the truth, they might end up hurting the feelings of the straight people around. Blurting out everything is taboo in Japan or that is a disadvantage for the promotion because human feelings come first in many cases as far as I know.


3) Trends:
However, some gay habitants in big cities, such as Osaka and Tokyo, associated with plenty of gay spots or party-activities, show a different phenomenon lately, such as they don't marry and live as a stag(a single) or live with their same-sex partners. They are now in the period where the the change is becoming extremely steep. The role of bars and publishers, once had a strong influence upon Japanese gay society, is diminishing with the internet facilities increasing every year. These phenomenon can be up to the rise of high-tech companies and the collapse of a life-time employment, as the basic fractures and structures of Japan are changing dramatically, that is shaking the traditional gay society. Most gay youth have tough time at traditional places, where the circumstances are quite conservative and the stuff aren't attractive. We are looking for innovation and change, resulting in the further fall of the gay old-line business and the countryside.
Source: www.geocities.com/queersamurai/intro.html

[Me-Nuriko]

Wow, you're busy today OptiMoose. ;D

About the gay man who wasn't cute and beautiful, and worried about it, it's the same with heterosexual people, too, isn't it? Especially among girls. How many girls aren't there who are worried about their looks?
And that's because we're surrounded with the assertion that it's very important for a woman to be pretty. So I can't see why it would be worse for the gay men to live with it, then it it is to us. (Heh, sound a bit bitchy, don't I? ;D )