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Post by Me-Nuriko on Aug 20, 2004 5:25:14 GMT -5
Let's see if my feverish mind can come up with a coherent answer. If the sexual attraction disappears from a relationship that is based on a smarm kind of friendship, then the relationship wouldn't change. Except that they no longer had sex. They would still love each other, and be willing to die for each other. If the sexual attraction disappears from a relationship based on sex, then the relationsship would be destroyed, unless they can't find at least some kind of friendship.
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Post by kanshu on Aug 20, 2004 6:37:07 GMT -5
Mhm... I would beg to differ. There is a line you cross when you have sex. It *does* change things. I mean... If, for example, you and your husband (for lack of better example) suddenly wouldn't want the intimacy provided by sex any longer, because the lusting for each other is gone - would that not put your relationship to a different level? Make you maybe feel like you lost something? Take away the "complete and whole" achieved previously? (I'm annoying, I know. Blame it on my inner Gojyo. Or my inner Sanzo. ) A random thought: How about the fact that the Boy's Love relationship is one "amongst equals"? That the "male/female" 'rank' dilemma can be avoided in a m/m relationship? That in reading, or writing, you are 'on eye level'?
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Post by Me-Nuriko on Aug 20, 2004 8:03:24 GMT -5
Unfortunately my husband's and mine relationship isn't based on that smarm kind of friendship I would have wanted it to be. That is all I can say without getting in to a long, much too personal ranting. And didn't you say the relationship didn't have to include sex to be 'complete and whole'? I still stick to what I wrote above. Maybe I'm just idealistic, but it feels right to me. Now I'm the annoying one, I know. But wasn't I supposed to be like Gojyo, and you like Sanzo? That would make us supposed to be annoying to each other, right? ;D Yes, I've been thinking about the equal thing in boys relationship, too, and you might very well have a point there. It is one of the things that makes me love it.
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Post by kanshu on Aug 20, 2004 8:43:34 GMT -5
*huggles* Well, I was asking in response to the previous statements made, where the 'extra' or the 'completeness' was a major fact of the enjoyment factor. It was playing 'devil's advocate'. I don't think you are 'too idealistic' - maybe I'm too jaded, you know? Because, whenever I read that thing about the "complete body and soul" or "doing the last step", I begin to ask myself "am I doing something wrong, or am I maybe a weirdo", since I don't feel any urge to jump into bed with my soul mates... because I do feel complete and whole with things just as they are. Thing is, I do know the body&soul complete, as well as the 'soul' complete. (and I could add in a rant here, too. That's why to me it's a very huge difference, and not just a convinient add on, if you do the extra step - no matter if you deal with a het or homo relationship. As for Gojyo&Sanzo: (reads posts) Oi, you're right. I was my inner Sanzo, after all. And yes, we are supposed to annoy each other, in that gentle and caring friendly way. Right? ;D )( <-- Ero Kappa The "equal" stuff caught my attention, because of the way you often have "seme/uke", and one part turning 'girlish'... but still they are more 'equal' than the average boy/girl love story. I'm probably completely off track here, but I know that I like romance with a strong female part. And funny enough, the strong girls in anime/manga are often in a f/f relationship... But I'm rambling. Get better soon, you hear? Rest and cure your fever. Can't have you ill.
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Post by Me-Nuriko on Aug 20, 2004 9:04:38 GMT -5
As for Gojyo&Sanzo: (reads posts) Oi, you're right. I was my inner Sanzo, after all. And yes, we are supposed to annoy each other, in that gentle and caring friendly way. Right? ;D That's what friends are for. ;D Yes, I've always liked strong females in every kind of stories. Be it romance or action. That's probably why I've never liked romance stories, the girls are so weak and bright eyed. Fortunately there are more strong girls/women in action movies and stories now than earlier. When the girl's only excuse for being there, is to be rescued it really makes me want to cry. And thanks. I really want to get well. (Thanks for Hakkai, too. ) I don't have time for being sick. It's so boring to just lie in bed all the time. I just have to get up and check the computer from time to time.
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Post by cesmith on Aug 20, 2004 18:39:28 GMT -5
OptiMoose- It's like any relationship. Sexual attraction comes and goes, and hopefully returns. It's the friendship that holds a marriage or relationship together. I place more importance on the friendship, that's why I said soul there. Your body you can give to anyone, if you choose, but to give it to your best friend, that you also love romantically, how could that not be perfect?
Even in M/M relationships they are only equal if the characters are equal, and yes, that is one of the reasons I like the Gojyo/Hakkai pairing. They feel equal. I don't feel the same way about , say, a Sanzo/Hakkai or Sanzo/ Goku pairing. Sanzo is obviously the dominant person due to the strength of his character, at least, in my opinion.
Me-Nuriko- I hope you are feeling better soon. It's no fun being sick.
OptiMoose- I am never offended by someone who encourages me to think a thought through.
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Post by kanshu on Aug 21, 2004 0:25:41 GMT -5
cesmith: Glad you didn't feel offended. I have this unhealthy habit of trying to figure out what makes things tick, and try to understand another person's train of thought... while at the same time comparing to my own thoughts and standards more or less noisily. Back on topic: You still skirted around the problem of what losing the attraction will do to a relationship. All those little, trained behaviour patterns, you know. You change the rules of a soul-mate relationship once you have sex. (Oi, and now I have difficulties to expain what I mean without turning this into a page-long rant. ) You would still search "for perfection" - the 'romantic' love aspect (which is nothing but a neat word for 'I want your body').
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Post by Me-Nuriko on Aug 21, 2004 2:42:31 GMT -5
All of us base our thoughts and believes on experiences in our lives. Many of these experiences are much too personal to share on a site like this. That is as it should be of course, but it do makes it harder to explain why we think as we do. I hate being sick. *cough, cough*
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Post by cesmith on Aug 21, 2004 7:16:28 GMT -5
To quote Me-Nuriko All of us base our thoughts and believes on experiences in our lives.
I sat here last night for at least 30 minutes typing an answer in, backspacing, then starting again. Couldn't seem to get into words what I wanted to say. This morning I read Me-Nuriko's reply and it clicked.
To ME, a perfect relationship isn't without it's flaws and warts. A relationship is made up of two people who bring their personal histories and ideologies together. We aren't perfect, so nothing we do can be perfect. What makes a RELATIONSHIP perfect is when the two people can work through the obstacles in life and come out still together. A relationship should change along the way, as the people change and grow. We ALL hope for the better, but those times are easy. It's the worst that tests each relationship and ourselves as people.
In the case of Saiyuki, where they face death nearly every day, how could the loss of sex compare to the loss of that person forever? In that context, the sex is insignificant, a nice added bonus, but not as important as a living companion.
Phew, that was hard to get out, but once you posed the question I couldn't let it go until I had sorted it out for myself. I think that's the best I can do on the topic .
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Post by kanshu on Aug 21, 2004 8:03:42 GMT -5
Me-Nuriko, cesmith: Well said. I applaud to you two. And I really liked your description of the 'perfect relationship', cesmith. I'm really enjoying this thread. I'll probably use part of your thought concepts in a canon-based boy's love story in a different fandom... sometime later, when I'm done with torturing the Saiyuki guys. cesmith: When you face death on a daily base, you tend to ignore your own mortality, or that of your beloved ones. It's one of those protective mechanism that allows people to stay sane... always in the back of one's mind, but never really present. Plus, how would it apply to other Boy's Love relationships where you don't have life-death situations? I mean, you can't always add in a near-death experience to make everyone aware that their partner is more important than their sex-life. Me-Nuriko: Hey, what's that Hakkai doing there, that you're still sick? (remembers about Me-Nuriko being Gojyo.) Erm, no, forget that I asked.
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Post by cesmith on Aug 21, 2004 20:48:57 GMT -5
Boy, what a taskmaster you are. I barely survived the relationship definition. I guess, quite honestly, that when the sex stops, the relationship/friendship will survive or be destoyed based on the level of commitment the participents feel for each other. There really is no magical answer, as much as we might like to find one. I don't think the possibility that the relationship will change should stop them from pursuing what I consider a natural extension of loving someone. Don't forget, you not only pleasure yourself, but your partner too. It's not all self-gratification. Even friends that would die for each other could/will drift apart. Part of the ever changing flow of our lives. Nothing remains the same forever, and shouldn't. Things that don't change are so boring, to quote our favorite Hir.
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Post by cesmith on Aug 21, 2004 23:13:55 GMT -5
Forgot to put this in, but quite honestly didn't want to interrupt the more serious post with this fun, so I'll do it seperately. OptiMoose- Thank you for giving Gojyo his Hakkai. Can't help but smile as I think about it. Also, remember, not all of our four young men are entirely sane to start with.
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Post by kanshu on Aug 22, 2004 6:13:04 GMT -5
Hehe... Well, I would've asked as to why characters who are in a friendship or even smarm type of friendship, and no matter how straight, suddenly get bitten by the "Coming out" bug... But then, I better stow that question, because in the end, it's just a mean to achieve that goal of 'boys love'... no matter how the characters are portraid in canon. In the end, it's all a game of "What if" Thanks for all your work and time. You helped me immensely with this. And maybe/hopefully, a couple of potential future visitors, too.
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Post by kanshu on Aug 22, 2004 6:15:14 GMT -5
cesmith: Oi, I know that Me-Nuriko likes Gojyo&Hakkai best that way. And while it might not float my boat, if it helps her, than who am I to interefere with a naughty 'get well' thought?
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Post by Me-Nuriko on Aug 22, 2004 9:45:00 GMT -5
Well, since I'm much better now, it must have helped. ;D Thanks.
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