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Post by Me-Nuriko on Aug 18, 2004 10:52:18 GMT -5
Stories with pedophiles, euw, that's not for me. Konzen/chibi-Goku isn't anything I would like to read, it's just disgusting. Sex between children depends on their age. I think it's only natural if they have reached middle teens. Then their bodies are ready, and they are almost grown up.
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Post by cesmith on Aug 18, 2004 11:18:51 GMT -5
Me-Nuriko- Yes, I am the one and same cesmith. It's taken us a lot of years and work to be best friends, and there were times he was my worst enemy. Even without intersts in common though he encourages my insanity because he knows it makes me happy.
I had never read any type of Boy's Love stories before finding Saiyuki fanfiction. I surprise myself sometimes with what I have read since, and what I have liked. The most embarrassing thing was when my twenty-two year old son walked up behing me and started reading a Hakkai/Gojyo pairing over my shoulder. Isn't it the parent that catches their child reading the stories and not the other way around? Anyway, he just kept saying, they're not gay mom, and I just kept blushing brighter and brighter. Had to tell him to move so I could finish the story. He asked the question though and maybe someone could answer it, What is it with fangirls, that they have to make them gay (or in a relationship).
I am pretty careful about pedophile stories. I think that's one place I have trouble with the Sanzo/Goku pairing. I'm uncomfortable with it. Eighteen in years but with so little life experience (to borrow your phrase OptiMoose) I still look at him as a child. It doesn't help that I am so much older than those writing the stories, so eighteen IS still a child. I have read some pretty good stories, but not usually ones I'll print out to keep. I remember one on ff that approached the relationship with Sanzo feeling like a Pedophile for his feelings. Uncomfortable story.
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Post by kanshu on Aug 18, 2004 12:01:57 GMT -5
Personally, I think that the Sanzo-Goku relationship is very similar to the Koumyou-Chibi-Sanzo relationship. A little bit like father-son, or big brother/little brother. As for why... well, the boy's love stories that I wrote were AU, purely speculative. It helped me to understand how severly the dynamics get influenced. And as you can see, I am back to smarm or 'plain story' in the stuff that I write. So... I hope that the others can help you find an answer... since I'm not much of a boy's love fan. BTW, that just goes for non-canon pairings. I have no probs with canon pairings (which fall under the 'boy's love' definition, too). Oi, and give your son a high-five from me. Way to go!
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Post by cesmith on Aug 18, 2004 13:01:24 GMT -5
I see Gokus' and Sanzos' relationship the same way. I've seen the term Guardian used too, which in a way is maybe more fitting. The term implies more emotional distance than a Father figure or Big Brother would have.
Wasn't sure if I should or not, but I told my son about your high-five about them not being gay. He smiled at that, then looked at me and said, They're not gay Mom.
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Post by kanshu on Aug 18, 2004 13:30:24 GMT -5
I'm not sure about the guardian... it sure started out that way, but I think that it has grown to be more like a dysfunctional family of sorts ever since Hakkai and Gojyo entered the picture. Hehe... listen to your son, he's a guy. He's supposed to know how guys tick. ;D *runs to hide from rabid fellow fangirls* Well, I think I better go and finish the new chapter for "Slaves"... just... mmm... 700 words left, I'd say.
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Post by Me-Nuriko on Aug 18, 2004 14:07:30 GMT -5
cesmith: Thanks, you give me hope. I hadn't read any Boy's love stories before I found fandoms, either. And I'm also surprised by how much I liked it. I really don't know why most of us fangirls like them that way. I've got three sons. They all know what I read and write. (My husband knows, too.) One thinks it's terrible, he reacts almost homophobic, one doesn't care very much, and one grins and asks if there isn't any f/f stories, too. My husband finds it interesting that I like it, but he doesn't seem to mind. Oh, my daughter has no problems with it, but she's like OptiMoose and doesn't like non-canon pairings. OptiMoose: Nah, we all know where you stand. We won't hurt you. (Very much ) Besides if we did hurt you, you wouldn't be able to continue 'Slaves...' and that would be a shame. ;D
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Post by cesmith on Aug 18, 2004 17:57:40 GMT -5
We will protect OptiMoose from all rabis fangirls. Only 700 more words to go? OOhh, breathes happily. Can't wait...
When you throw Gojyo and Hakkai into the relationship equation of Goku and Sanzo, yes, it does seem like a dysfunctional family. I remember seeing a picture in a Japanese magazine like that. Hakkai in an apron, the Mother, Sanzo, with his paper, the Father and Goku and Gojyo fighting in the background, Big and Little Brother. The image fits. My oldest son is 24 and lives in SanFrancisco. He doesn't know and probably wouldn't believe I would read stories with m/m themes. My 22 year old is the one that keeps saying they're not gay. Don't think he likes it either that I read them. My Daughter is 20 and she definitly does not want to even know what I read. My youngest is 13, and he doesn't really know my reading habits. I print the stories he can read, which means not many. My Husband, finds my interest a little weird and teases me, but not cruelly. I find he only has a problem when I'm online too much and he's feeling jealous.
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Post by kanshu on Aug 19, 2004 1:51:49 GMT -5
Me-Nuriko: Meep!!! cesmith: Oi, making your hubby jealous isn't a good thing. What I find amusing are the different reactions of your kids to the boy's Love stories. I guess that pretty much sums up the average reaction through fandom. Though, it still doesn't answer the question WHY is boy's love / Yaoi so hot with fanfic authors and readers? (And for 'Slaves': it will contain Hakkai-Goku bonding and an insight into Hakkai's feelings. Gojyo's experiencing the aftermath of meeting Doku. Kind of. )
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Post by cesmith on Aug 19, 2004 5:24:11 GMT -5
I asked my son to think why he though Fangirls write the Boys Love stories. He asked some questions and came up with this theory. Since Mary-Sues are frowned on he felt that writers put themselves into their favorite characters and involve themselves with the other characters. They are role-playing with the story. An acceptable emotional release for fangirls. Any thoughts on this?
OptiMoose- This is a safe thing to make him jealous over. We actually have bickered over it, I wouldn"t call it an arguement. What we need is another computer. Then he can play Ragnarok OL and I can read. We'll be in the same room, together, talking and enjoying our own thing. The perfect solution.
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Post by Me-Nuriko on Aug 19, 2004 6:55:28 GMT -5
About your son's theory, cesmith: That is one explanation. When a writer do that it's called a Canon Sue. But I don't think that's the whole answer. Personally I have always loved smarm stories, and when I found out that people wrote about sex between very good friends it was appealing to me. To me, the romance between the boys must be founded in that kind of relationship that is smarm. If its not, then it's either only an ordinary romantic story, which I have never liked even between boy/girl, or a more or less pornographic story only to give in for desires.
Take two incredibly good friends that love each other and are willing to die for each other, if they take that last step and become lovers, too, it's just adding another dimension. But this is only my personal opinion.
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Post by kanshu on Aug 19, 2004 7:37:51 GMT -5
Mmm... but that would mean that, without sex, their friendship isn't 'complete'? Since you say they 'take the last step'... Like in "Add in the non-plus-ultra: Sex"...
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Post by Me-Nuriko on Aug 19, 2004 8:09:10 GMT -5
Maybe 'the last step' was a bad expression. A 'side step' maybe? No, I dont think the romance is necessary, but it appeals to me. And I definitely prefere a friendship kind of love without sex, before a love built on desire with no friendship. Man, this is so hard to explain!
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Post by cesmith on Aug 19, 2004 13:51:34 GMT -5
I've been trying to think why it appeals to me so much, especially since I had never read anything like smarm before, or BoysLove, and I can't stand normal romance stories. Maybe we could say it completes the relationship. The friendship is rock solid and the sex (whether it's holding, kissing or actual sex) takes it into a completed relationship, where you are joined body (relationship) and soul (friendship).
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Post by therhoda on Aug 19, 2004 14:22:31 GMT -5
Besides don't forget the whole puppet thing authors have. If you think about it this one of the reasons people write fan fic. Well I want to see so and so do this. Or what would happen if they did that.
With these two genres I think you get everything from self insertion or cannon sues to the what would make people brain leak out their noses. The last I think is responsible for a lot of the "is that anatomically possible" stories we see.
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Post by kanshu on Aug 20, 2004 3:48:29 GMT -5
cesmith: I toss to you the same question... "perfection needs sex"? Everything else is fine, too, but with sex, it's just even better? "Non-Plus-Ultra" "whole in body and soul"? (Sorry if I sound like a broken record or sarcastic. But it amuses me to no end to see that when you boil it down, what counts and appeals, and makes the huge difference is SEX, lust, the satisfaction of the character's own needs. ;D ) And let me play devil's advocate (and maybe dish out a story idea): What will you do with such a relationship when the sexual attraction is no more there (just like it happens in so many other relationships)? Is it then "imperfect"? Or "incomplete"? (And I'm just - how is the phrase? - pulling your legs. No offense or disrespect, or personal attack meant. I'm just curious for answers. Me-Nuriko: If saying what we mean would be easy, life would be less filled with misunderstandings and maybe a happier place.
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