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Post by kanshu on Aug 19, 2004 23:46:39 GMT -5
;D Self-insertion means, the author is taking part as their very own person in their fiction. Basically a 'what would happen if I end up in that world and met the characters'. Most of the time, that also is the plot of the story. Sometimes, it is the other way around: "What happens if the characters end up in my world and meet me". Mary Sue - a phrase coined in Star Trek fandom. Mary Sue is a disguised self-insertion, where the author creates a character that is too good to be true, to have her favorite character fall in love with her. OFC - abbrevation for "Original Female Character". Unlike the selfinsertion and the Mary Sue, an OFC is supposed to not be a reincarnation of the author, but a plot device. This means that an OFC requires a great deal of work in making them believable, and also to avoid being pegged as a 'Mary Sue' when the OFC serves as love interest for the hero. Thoughts, comments, other definitions? Do you have a "Mary Sue" checklist?  Any sugestions on how to write a good OFC, or how to avoid a Mary Sue? |
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Post by BakaBokken on Aug 20, 2004 12:09:01 GMT -5
Here's a pretty humorous definition I found at a thread over in the MM.org forum: "A Mary Sue sticks out in a fanfiction story, because she's obviously not real. She's too perfect. She's instantly loved by every canon character, except for the girls, who all turn into harpies that detest her, even though she's so sweet. She's smarter than Einstein, more radiant than Venus, stronger than Hercules, faster than Mercury, universally forgiving and beloved, except by the story's bad guys. Mary Sue out-fights every canon character. She has every super power mentioned in the canon series and one or two extra ones, that don't fit in at all. She's stunningly beautiful and has a two paragraph description of what she's wearing. Her only flaws are that she's hot headed, or loves her friends too much, or dislikes cheese, or other non-relevant flaw. Alas, Mary Sue often dies tragically, to save the world she loves so much. Oh yeah, Mary Sue is always the same age as the author." Side note: A male "Mary Sue" is often referred to as a "Gary Stu", for no apparent reason other than that the names rhyme. If I find a good evaluation of a potential Mary Sue, I'll post it here ;D Until then, I suggest we start a thread in the "Fanfics - Technique and Help" section where writers can post the description of their OC's and we can help them determine if it's a Mary Sue / Gary Stu. |
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Post by KarotsaMused on Aug 20, 2004 14:42:40 GMT -5
There are always the ubiquitous "How to Tell if your Character is a Mary-Sue" quizzes, but normally they're so easy to pick out.
A good example would be my friend, who started writing an original novel around age fourteen. The lead character (whose name rhymes with hers) shares her physical attributes, age, and personality type. She is an extremely powerful prodigy with whom the lead male character has been desperately in love for months. Every male in the universe wants her, and every female tries to be on her good side. When her beloved teacher dies to protect her, she mourns but has enough strength to annihilate her enemies. She has been captured by the 'enemy' around four times, but each time has found an ingenious way to get herself out of traps...
So I guess my personal Mary-Sue checklist would involve:
Unnatural amount of physical/mental/emotional talents (OFC's may excel in one or two areas, but not everything that comes their way)
Extreme beauty
Extreme loyalty, kindness, and benevolence that is -always- recognized by her peers
Dark and mysterious past
Distinguishing scar or birthmark that is a plot point but does not detract from her beauty
Desperate, angsting potential love interests
A natural affinity with animals (Think Sleeping Beauty)
An ability hitherto unimaginable in the universe (Ie: A wingless, gorgeous hanyou that can fly like Peter Pan)
No changes in the group dynamic when the character is introduced
Is a long-lost relative to one of the canon characters
Her kindness and strength is the inspiration to convert the 'bad guys' to the 'good side'
If Three or more of those are present, it's a definite Mary-Sue...
I guess the way one would write a good OFC is to make her human, give her limits, problems, normal tics that everybody else has. Understand that other characters will react to her entrance in the plot and may even build up some resentments to her. If she has drama, some other characters don't have to care about it. And always make sure that the plot points that come from her are actually important to the story and not just an excuse to delve into her past ^^;;
An' BakaBokken's got a good idea, now that I've shut up. *trolls over to that section of the mb*
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Post by kanshu on Aug 20, 2004 14:52:21 GMT -5
*snickers* Oi... if you go by that list, then all of the Sanzo-gang are Mary Sues....  ;D |
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Post by KarotsaMused on Aug 20, 2004 23:31:34 GMT -5
lol I said THREE or more!! I can see how one or two might apply but...
And anyway, they're canon ^^;; Or is Minekura open to accusation ? o.O;
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Post by kanshu on Aug 21, 2004 0:12:05 GMT -5
She's a fangirl by heart. 'nough said.  But I like your list, and also bakabokken fun little description. And whoever wants to start that "test your OFC" thread, go for it. |
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Post by Filthy on Aug 28, 2004 15:38:38 GMT -5
I have one little thing to add to the Mary-Sue list: The tragic past.
The MS has been abused, bullied at school, is an orfan, saw everyone she loved die etc. Just so that the reader will feel sorry for her, however, most readers don't give a damn.
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Post by kellen on Sept 5, 2004 21:08:34 GMT -5
And, oh the woes of writing an OFC that people won't immediately jump on my case about her being a self insertion or an MS... *swoons*
Although I will say I am working on an LotR parody of a Self insert/MS by inserting myself into the story...buts that's not really relevant.
I've created a few OFCs and OMCs. More female than male because, frankly, I write from a female perspective a little more believably. I have to work hard to make the male characters sound and act... well, male. With one OFC I created in the Lord of the Rings fandom, I did have a lot of traits that would make her a Mary Sue, but I am happy to say all my reviewers (not a huge number) told me I pulled it off. You see, Eldabeth is a relation to Legolas (not long lost, but still...), lived through a terrible tragedy, is pretty (elf!) and accompanied Legolas into battle, however inadvertantly. She was in nearly every scene of the story, but never by herself and she was not a warrior and confidence was something she sorely lacked.
It's difficult to write an OFC, any original character, and make them fit seamlessly into the canon storyline and group dynamic. When I introduce characters, they are meant to be a one-story thing: they come in, interact, and leave by the end of the story so that the group dynamic is not changed permanently. I wholeheartedly adore some OCs; I love to see a good author take and expand upon the world and to see the characters I love interact with someone unknown to them. It opens up so many possibilities if done right.
On the other hand, I am also leery of seeing them sometimes... I like canon... LoL
cheers,Kellen
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Post by kanshu on Sept 6, 2004 1:33:43 GMT -5
It's sad that the overwhelming number of Mary Sues ruins the reading experience for a lot of readers.
However, writing Mary Sues / self insertions is a 'normal part' of the 'becoming an author' process. Most authors do it at one point or another... I don't see anything wrong with them.
The huge problem with a Mary Sue or a self insertion is that the author is connected entirly too close to that character. Any attempt of constructive feedback will automatically be perceived as a personal attack, a "flame". Since the Mary-Sue phenomenon is often (not always) related to younger authors, this can caue problems.
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Post by kellen on Sept 6, 2004 12:44:16 GMT -5
Oh yeah, 'tis a normal part of becoming an author. While I get tired of seeing them, I just stay outta the way. Hey, I fell into it when I started as well.
I think a lot of it can be contributed to the fangirl in all of us, but I'm also thinking that the difficulty in writing one of those fantastic stories we all admire has a lot to do with it. Seriously, how many of us have any sort of training or workshopping when it comes to writing? Some do, but the majority of young writers trying their hand are plunging into an unknown. The easiest thing for them to do is insert a character that is easy for them to write: someone who tragically perfect (which, to the untrained eye, is high drama) or themselves.
Then, as most writers mature, they find something they excel at (characterization, plot, prose, etc) and get away from the rather immature beginning efforts of a writer who really doesn't know how to do what they want to do.
And, who doesn't have fantasies about meeting their fictional idol? ;D
cheers,Kellen
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Post by kanshu on Sept 7, 2004 12:17:45 GMT -5
Well, amongst us people here, we could start something like a writing workshop. While none of us is a pro, we all have the one or other experience, and can contribute. Of course, it would mean that there has to be an actual interest to do something like a workshop. And Salma already started a good thread about grammar. What I really don't like is when people get flamed for writing a Sue-fic... or the type of hate-fics that currently pop up in the Saiyuki-section, for example. Making fun or writing a parody is one thing. But hunting down authors and flame them doesn't work in my book. IMO, it's "If you don't like it, don't read it"... And frankly said... I prefer a Mary Sue over a Cannon Sue at any time. ;D |
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Post by Salmastryon on Sept 7, 2004 13:16:40 GMT -5
I'm not ashamed to admit that I like a good Mary Sue fic. As for the not so well written MAry Sue fics, I have nothingagainst them, besides my lack of interest. I write as an outlit for my imagination and to entertain myself and others.
I don't know anyone who hasn't imagined themselves helping or being their favorite character at some point in their lives. I have no intentions of stiffling anyone's imaginations. I often find myself trying to encourage peoples imaginations.
So is it should be no surprise that I like a good original character.
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Post by Me-Nuriko on Sept 7, 2004 13:43:23 GMT -5
I guess a good Mary Sue fic can be just that, good. Only, they are so hard to find. Often they are written by very young girls, and while I like to encourage them, I can't say most of them write well, yet.
I used to do a lot of self insertions earlier in life, and I have read it is a phase many of us go through. I have read quite a few Mary Sues, just to learn how people write, and I've even reviewed some of them for the sake of encouragement, especially if I thought the author was worth it. Never written a flame, of course, I try to encourage, not put someone in despair.
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Post by Salmastryon on Sept 8, 2004 7:35:35 GMT -5
I guess a good Mary Sue fic can be just that, good. Only, they are so hard to find. That almost sounds like a challenge.  At anyrate, it does bring to mind a fic that makes no bones about being a Mary Sue fic. It was quite an enjoyable read too. Plenty of ups and downs. I'll go see if I can track it down and post a rec on it in the fanfic rec section. *goes rummaging through old links* |
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Post by Me-Nuriko on Sept 8, 2004 15:34:17 GMT -5
A challenge to find one, or to write one? Hehe, I can assure you a Mary Sue fic written by me would be a very bad one. ;D If you find the one you thought of, I'll read to see what I think. (Haven't checked the fanfic rec. thread yet.) |
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