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Post by kanshu on Sept 9, 2004 3:43:55 GMT -5
Using foreign languages is quite tempting. Saru, baka, sensei, -kun, -chan, -san. For an anime fan, it's quite easy to get lost in using all the words that one hears when listening to the subbed version of one's favorite anime. It starts to feel 'natural'. From that natural feeling to writing in a mixture of foreign language an English is just a short step. The foreign language is used as "natural talk" - and not to indicate that the character is, indeed, speaking a different language that the other characters don't understand. -- How do you handle the issue in your writings? -- How do you feel about the usage of foreign language in fanfiction? -- Is there are 'too much'? Or maybe 'not enough'? Please share your opinions and experiences.
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Post by cesmith on Sept 9, 2004 4:59:52 GMT -5
Sometimes using the Japanese phrases has made it really hard for me, as a reader, to follow a story. Yes, it adds to the characters realism to use their catch phrases, but there are times I've missed out understanding portions of the dialogue because I don't know, or can't remember, the meanings of the Japanese words. I've actually stopped reading some stories because the author dropped in too many Japanese words. Some of them seemed really good, but it was just too frustrating to bother. A few times, Authors have put a list of the phrases they use, with the translations, at the end of their stories. That helped, and helped me start builing the vocabulary most often used in Saiyuki Fanfiction. However, as I start to branch out, I find that there are, of course, new phrases to learn that are associated with the new shows and I'm starting all over.
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Post by Me-Nuriko on Sept 9, 2004 10:36:49 GMT -5
I don't use many Japanese words in my stories. What I use is '-san', -kun' and '-chan'. '-san' because it just doesn't sound right to say 'Mister' or 'Miss', and '-kun' and '-chan' isn't translateable (is there such a word?).
The same goes for o-niichan and o-neechan, but I'm a littla ambivalent here, because at the same time it's a little too much of 'foreign language' over the words.
In Saiyuki I think it's okay to use the word 'kappa', that, too, because it's no good English word for it.
I don't like when there are whole phrases of Japanese in a fic, even if I understand most of it. I just don't think it's okay to mix the languages too much. I can agree to 'Harahetta' because it's such an often used phrase in Saiyuki, but I don't use it myself.
That means I don't like phrases like 'Daijobu desu ka' or 'Nani' or 'Gomen', even if I understand them.
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Post by Salmastryon on Sept 9, 2004 11:29:17 GMT -5
My views on foreign language are fairly simple. Don't use it. The story should be in the language it is written in. That means the suffixes like -chan, -kun, -san and -sama shouldn't be used. Instead the cultural equivelant should be used, which doesn't necessarily mean a Mr. or Ms.
The name suffixes in Japanese denote respect and familiarity depending on who is addressing whom. Present day English doesn't really have anything nearly as complex. So, you have to make decisions on whether to use first name. last name, last name with prefix or a nickname on a case by case basis. The point being that since your characters are speaking and thinking english they should sound like native english speakers.
I do think there are acceptable exceptions to this rule of thumb. First off, if a character is dealing with people who speak a foreign language he or she doesn't undersand then snatches of that language are okay. As long as you KNOW that language, or get someone who KNOWS the languge to help you. Nothing disgusts me more then coming across improperly used Japanese in a fic, and believe me, most of it is improperly used.
The second exception is certain foreign words. As Me-Nuriko said there are certain word that are untranslatable(Yes, that is a word.) Such words like youkai, oni, tanuki and sutra for example. Trying to translate these words can end up with bad connotations. Like trying to use demon for youkai ends up with a mess of negative association from christiandom. The key to using these words is to include an either implied or explicit explanation of their meaning in your story.
Why all the trouble to eliminate foreign words from your story? Never assume that the reader will know their meaning. A glossary may help with this but, using it requires one to stop reading the story and look up the word. After doing this five or six times, I know I would get frustrated. A frustrated reader is a reader who doesn't come back.
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Post by JeiC on Sept 10, 2004 20:37:16 GMT -5
I think it also depends on the fandom, but I agree with Me-Nuriko. When I write Gundam Wing fics, I don't use anything (or at least I don't think I do). However, when writing for Inu-Yasha and Fullmetal Alchemist, I'll use suffixes or the term for older brother, etc. I think it's those untranslatable words that can draw a person into a fic more. I mean if the setting is in Japan say, it helps draw them into the culture. Of course, used properly. I have read plenty of fanfics that I have wanted to just run away from all the horrible Japanese that was mixed in.
I mean it'd be like writing for Sakura from CCS and using "Ah!" instead of "Hoe!" for her custom scream of surprise. I mean even the English dub of the second movie has her saying "Hoe!" - so if even the pro's are letting that through...
I'm not saying use it to you're heart's content, but it can be that little tid-bit (if used properly) that pushes your fic to a higher level.
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Post by D-chan on Sept 11, 2004 0:46:24 GMT -5
This is an amazingly good question. ^^; But I really think it depends on the word or suffix. Quite honestly, I do NOT feel comfortable translating, "Oniichan" into "Big brother" when I write, because most English-speaking people address their elder or younger siblings by their names. However, using the "Oniichan/Oneechan" thing can actually be a very important character trait. In that case I keep the word, but I italicize it to make sure people understand it's a foreign word, and I make a note at the beginning of the story/chapter as to why I chose to use the Japanese word instead of the English equivalent.
However, things like, "-sama" I just translate into "Lord" or "Lady," since that DOES sound natural in some time periods. Or even when it's used jokingly.
But as Me-Nuriko said, words like "kappa" and "youkai" can be used since there isn't an English equivalent (though because of ADV's translation, I have a habit of using "demon" instead of "youkai" in this case). Still, I think any and all foreign words should be italicized, just so the readers are aware when another language slips in.
HOWEVER. If Japanese phrases/sentences are used for a good reason, such as a language barrier, than I'm all for it, so long as the writer has at least some grasp of the Japanese sentence structure, or they seek help for it. *nod*
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Post by kanshu on Sept 11, 2004 3:26:47 GMT -5
I keep certain honorifics, when they are used for the reason of insult or respect. "chan", for example, used on a no-longer-child male who is not your lover or very best friend (when you are a no-longer-child male yourself), is an insult and usually makes the person you address very angry. 'sama' - I know I shouldn't keep that one, but since it includes various levels of meaning, I can be sucked in with that one. I usually try to rephrase it to 'honorable' or something, but it doesn't always work. 'sensei' - I use it usually just in speech or thought, though I try to translatte it to teacher/doctor/master or what is appropriate. However, sometimes, the translated word doesn't have the multiple meaning I need for the sentence, so I go for the sensei then. 'sake' - it's vine, but a special sort of vine, so it stays as it is, in italics. 'san' I always translate, with *one* exception - when Gohan addresses Piccolo in spoken language. Youkai... if I could figure out the correct pluras for that one... I'm using 'demon' most of the time now, because of that. oniichan will translate most of the time as 'Uncle', if you use it for the common usage for non related persons. Older people could get a 'grandfather/gramps' trather than the 'ojiisan'. Apply for the female version, too. There are a handful of commonly known words - "sushi" or "Sayonara", for example, that can be understand without much of a problem. But general, no, I don't like entire sentences, or an enceclopedia of words in a foreign language outside of marking the special ones. To me, it is highly disrespectful to the reader, showing off in a different language like saying "Nje, you either are a true fan and understand this, or you better bow before me because I understand what they say!"
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Post by D-chan on Sept 11, 2004 3:50:29 GMT -5
oniichan will translate most of the time as 'Uncle', if you use it for the common usage for non related persons. Older people could get a 'grandfather/gramps' trather than the 'ojiisan'. Apply for the female version, too. *blinks* But in America it's kinda rare to see children address strangers as "Uncle" or "Grandpa" or something of that sort. So in that case (of the Japanese using "oniisan" or "ojisan" or "ojiisan") I tend to just use, "Mister." Or some Americanized variation of that, like "Sir," if you're very respectful, or just "Hey you" would work, too. ^^;
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Post by kanshu on Sept 11, 2004 3:57:39 GMT -5
Mmm... yes 'Mister' would probably work better - you have one accumulated word instead of the 'agegrading'. That will ruin the one or other joke, of course (like, younger men/women getting upset over being called the 'uncle/aunt version instead of the "brother/sister" one... That's one of the real problems when translationg... what works just great in one language/cultural system is often completely lost when you translate it to a different language. (forgot, I also use "baka saru" and "ero kappa" when Gojyo & Goku duke it out verbally... but Sanzo always uses 'stupid/idiot ape/monkey')
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Post by D-chan on Sept 11, 2004 4:12:00 GMT -5
Yeah, some of the titles can get lost in translation, so it can take away the humor/conflict in some things. (Though because of this conversation, it brought an interesting scene to mind of Goku calling Sanzo "Ojiisan" when he first met him. XD;; )
But that's still why I use italics for foreign words and notes in the stories to indicate what they mean. That way people can't accuse me of using Japanese without a purpose should I choose to do something like that. In the end, it's all about how you handle the writing.
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Post by Me-Nuriko on Sept 11, 2004 8:47:32 GMT -5
So far, I've avoided to use 'oniisan', because I really think it's untranslatable. So if I find a need to use it, I probably would use the Japanese word. Neither 'Uncle' nor 'Mister' sounds right to me, but as I said, I'm ambivalent here.
As for plural for 'Youkai' in English, I don't think there is any. You use the same form both for singular and plural. And yes, I use 'Youkai' instead of demon, for the same reason I use 'kappa'. As for 'Ero kappa' I usually write 'perverted kappa'. I know it's a mix, but it's more understandable IMO.
I always write 'idiot' and 'monkey' instead of 'baka' and 'saru', but I don't react badly when others use these words.
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Post by rasinah on Sept 11, 2004 10:26:03 GMT -5
For me, I often include some simple Japanese phrases in my fics, other than the standard suffixes. Examples would be "Daijobu desu ka?" or "Sou desu ka?" To me, these phrases sound better than "How are you?" or "Is that so?" I find that the Japanese phrases sound more polite and fitting than the English ones, but this is probably just me. Suffixes such as '-san' and '-sama' also sound better than 'Mister' or 'Lord/Lady'. I don't know how to explain this but probably as an Asian, I understand the depth of using such suffixes 'cuz I have similar ones in my own native language. Therefore, I find that it is important to retain these suffixes and it doesn't seem right to have them translated. And for the case of Saiyuki, Sanzo is often heard saying things like 'teme yaro' and other curses. Many authors use the English translations, such as 'fuck' and 'damn' and I'm a bit uncomfortable with these words. I find that 'fuck' is much stronger sounding and offensive. But again, it's personal preferences, no? So far though, the Japanese insertions in my fics are the standard ones, meaning often heard in the series.
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Post by Salmastryon on Sept 11, 2004 13:12:00 GMT -5
I stand by my belief that Japanese does not belong in any type of fiction except for the two exception I mentioned in my previous post. Phrases like "Daijoubu desu ka", "Sou desu ka" or "ai shiteru" especially annoy me, perhaps it is because I took Japanese for three years. While three years of Japanese is not enough for me to even attempt to write prose in Japanese, it is enough for me to know when Japanese is used incorrectly. Believe me if you are using "Daijobo desu ka?" you are using it incorrectly. First off the word is traditionally romanized as daijoubu or daijohbu not daijobo. Secondly, desu is the formal form of the verb daru. Japanese is filled with pitfalls of which form to put a verb or sentence in depending on politeness to even regional dialects. I'm not even going to go into how Japanese is a contextial language and how a phrase can change meaning depending on context. I will admit that the majority of your readers are not going to know the mistakes you are making. People like me will. My friend who is a Japanese major will stop reading your fiction, any of it. If you ask her why, she'll answer I have better things to do with my time then read something with such glaring errors. I've never seen subtitles or dub that includes japanese phrases in them. Well, that is not entirely true, I've seen some fansubs, but in most cases if you force a translator to sit and watch those, they will rant about how incorrect the subtitles are. So, I have to ask, why knowingly include mistakes and errors in your fiction. Because everyone else does, does not seem like a valid reason to me. You won't see me trying to make my grammar or writing style worse. I would think that any author's aim would be to improve their own writing so that it is better than other peoples. If you can you explain this convincingly to me, then great; until then I'll stick by my guns and have a strong adversion to any foreign language used in such a slap dash matter in fiction. Can you tell this is a soap box of mine?
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Post by JeiC on Sept 11, 2004 14:55:48 GMT -5
You have a point, but...I think it depends on not only the author, but also the fandom they're writing in. I mean, take someone speaking to Kagome from Inu-Yasha for instance. Inu-Yasha simply calls her Kagome. Miroku calls her Kagome-sama. Sango uses Kagome-chan. To me it'd sound a little weird to be translating Miroku saying Lady Kagome, Sango saying Little Kagome, and Inu-Yasha just saying Kagome. While I didn't study Japanese as long, the respect, to me, is lost in translation.
It'd be like translating bento in lunchbox. What is a typical western lunch box? Peanut butter and jelly sandwich...not what is packed in your typical bento box (If I just used that wrong, I'm sorry, but I got into this discussion with someone else quite awhile ago and I don't think I've ever used bento).
Yes, you do want to make your fic as accessible as possible to the widest range of people, but at the same time, you have weigh which version of the word would be better. However, when it comes to words like youkai, I'll alternate in a fic between that, demon, and full-blooded demon (usually this one only if I'm comparing a half-breed). Sometimes the Japanese word can be that one extra word in your thesaurus.
And as for -kun...how would you translate that? I really have no idea if someone wants to shed light on that for me.
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Post by Salmastryon on Sept 11, 2004 15:17:38 GMT -5
I'll give you the suffixes, that is something I'm willing to let slide. Figuring out how to tranlate those can be tough for an author. Of course if you do a little research and find a well translated version then you'll have the answers already done for you.
In answer to your question though, you can't do literal translations on suffixes. I just doesn't work because english does not have any direct corellation to the complexitires of the levels of formality of address that Japanese does. Take a look at the professional translations and you'll see what I mean. This means that, yes, Kagome-chan, Kagome and Kagome-san may all be translated at Kagome. The thing is, in english that would be how she'd be addressed.
Another thing to consider is that you, the writer, generally don't have the innate ability of a native speaker or the years upon years of experience with the Japanese language to know which suffix is appropriate when. It does change due to circumstances and/or audience.
Things like bento fall under my second exception which you can find where I addressed it in the post before the last.
Yeah, I have strong thoughts on the subject, but I enjoy hearing others viewpoints. ;D
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