Daijobo desu ka? Or: Language Annoyances

[kanshu]

In the German sub for Saiyuki, they tranlated Hakkai's politeness level with the way you would normally address strangers. He calls the others with their first names, but uses "Sie" as a modifier instead of "du" - which you can't translate properly in English... Imagine you would address your best friend with Miss/Mrs/Mr. - and that little change makes a huge difference.

Politeness levels don't work in English, and using them properly is quite tricky. You have to take age, gender, relationship, social status, situation and a dozen other things into account. From the little I know, you can majorly insult someone by using a wrong level of politeness.

Besides, I think that access to subs is limited. Manyfans don't watch the Japanese version. Of course, this varies from fandom to fandom, but once an anime is widely available in TV, you will see a huge number of fans who have never seen the original.
That creates problems starting from the names, to the way someone speaks, to favorite insults.

It is a very difficult topic... but I'd say that it's all a matter of "How much" and "what quality" you introduce.

I've seen authors who have complete sentences in Japanese, followed by a translation of the sentence in brackets. I though "Errr... hello? What is the purpose for doubling everything?" Others have dialogues without any translation...

Someone once told me "pick up the reader where he/she stands - don't expect the reader to walk the way to where you are". ;D

[Zelgadis55]

I've read a couple of fics where the author had put in whole sentances of japanese and yeah, sometimes with the translation in brackets straight after it and whether I understand it or not (sometimes I do, sometimes I don't, I only know a very little japanese) it is very off putting and I have stopped reading the otherwise decent story because of it.
I know that I use japanese words in my Saiyuki fics but only because it feels like it fits and it is usually related to a name (whether person's name ie what a person calls another, an insult or name of an object) or something else that wouldn't feel right translating, like youkai. Youkai especially since translating to demon makes it sound inherantly evil and youkai by nature are not necessarily evil, many are good. Anything new in a fic that I haven't previously had, I put a little translation glossary at the end in the a/n. I have been tempted to put daijoubu desu ka in at one point as something asked by Hakkai because it feels so right from him (I watch the subbed version of Saiyuki and the raws of Reload and Gunlock since the subs are hard to come by, so that is how I hear it) but I didn't go past that initial temptation because then it would have been a phrase/sentance and I remembered being very put off by that in other peoples fics.

[Blood_Debt]

I used to think that putting in Jap sounded so 'professional' but now I translate when I can.

Sometimes, I just drop the sama/lady/lord altogether - so much less hassle.

[Ganheim]

OptiMoose said:

Using foreign languages is quite tempting. "Saru, baka, sensei, -kun, -chan, -san."

For the vast majority of the time, if something can be translated then I believe it is a common courtesy to the audience (your readers) to translate. Still, I admit that I use a couple of those. "Sensei" is a semi-imported word, so you can use it (usually in its meaning of "teacher") without much of a problem, and in my fanfic Crossing the Rubicon I use "baka" (though I use it in a very different sense, and I explain any non-English words I use in the author notes at the end of the chapter).

OptiMoose said:

From that natural feeling to writing in a mixture of foreign language an English is just a short step. The foreign language is used as "natural talk" - and not to indicate that the character is, indeed, speaking a different language that the other characters don't understand.

Here's my simple opinion: If the words aren't in that other language for the express purpose of showing their separation from the other characters, then stick with the language you're writing your fic in. Example:

In Crossing the Rubicon, the characters from Kaizor all are fluent in Elvish (most of them are part Elf). Anyway, because of that, occasionally they'll start speaking in Elvish to each other. I use it only in dialogue when I want to make it clear that not all characters understand what is being said, and usually only when the audience doesn't need to know what was spoken. Even with this, I still put the translations in an author's note at the bottom of the chapter.

Salmastryon said:

My views on foreign language are fairly simple. Don't use it. The story should be in the language it is written in. That means the suffixes like -chan, -kun, -san and -sama shouldn't be used. Instead the cultural equivelant should be used, which doesn't necessarily mean a Mr. or Ms.

*Applause*

Salmastryon said:

...The point being that since your characters are speaking and thinking english they should sound like native english speakers.

Writers should keep their audience in mind. If you're writing a story, you should keep it in one language. Even in Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings, he created extensive languages but used them only to show separation, and if I remember correctly it was used only in dialogue.

Salmastryon said:

I do think there are acceptable exceptions to this rule of thumb. First off, if a character is dealing with people who speak a foreign language he or she doesn't undersand then snatches of that language are okay.

Agreed, this is pretty the reason why I asked somebody else to translate certain portions of dialogue from the Kaizor characters in Crossing the Rubicon.

Salmastryon said:

The second exception is certain foreign words. Such words like youkai, oni, tanuki and sutra for example.
Like trying to use demon for youkai ends up with a mess of negative association from christiandom. The key to using these words is to include an either implied or explicit explanation of their meaning in your story.

Yep, though this can be where things get sticky, because if you try to leave it at "having the context define the word", that doesn't always work.

Salmastryon said:

Why all the trouble to eliminate foreign words from your story? Never assume that the reader will know their meaning. A glossary may help with this but, using it requires one to stop reading the story and look up the word. After doing this five or six times, I know I would get frustrated. A frustrated reader is a reader who doesn't come back.

*Another round of applause*

D-chan said:

But as Me-Nuriko said, words like "kappa" and "youkai" can be used since there isn't an English equivalent (though because of ADV's translation, I have a habit of using "demon" instead of "youkai" in this case). Still, I think any and all foreign words should be italicized, just so the readers are aware when another language slips in.

There are some cases, like when an appropriate translation doesn't really exist, where the original can remain - this is why I use "youkai", because there is no good translation, and whenever I use Elvish (in dialogue only) I bold it - slipping in unusual formatting too often, like every time "youkai" shows up, can sometimes be a distraction, and I make sure to leave a translation in the "end of chapter glossary" for everything in the above chapter.

OptiMoose said:

Youkai... if I could figure out the correct pluras for that one... I'm using 'demon' most of the time now, because of that.

If you mean 'plurals', I don't think there is one. Now, I haven't taken a formal class on Japanese, but I have read several linguistics books on Japanese and they've indicated that there really isn't a way to change to plural like the "-s" in English.

OptiMoose said:

But general, no, I don't like entire sentences, or an enceclopedia of words in a foreign language outside of marking the special ones.

This can be very bad. I've seen a 'fic where the dialogue was all in Japanese, but the all of the non-dialogue was in English. I didn't even bother to read it, because I figured the author was too confused to pick one language and stick with it.

OptiMoose said:

To me, it is highly disrespectful to the reader, showing off in a different language like saying "Nje, you either are a true fan and understand this, or you better bow before me because I understand what they say!"

It is disrespectful when it's slapped around, and not all people will be able to assume its meaning from the context.

As for the exception of emphasizing language barriers, I'm going to quote Crossing the Rubicon:

The two suddenly notice Shippo (and his fox tail). Before Inuyasha knows what happened, both nock arrows in their bows and aim for Shippo. Kokeyera rushes between them and Shippo. "Áva qualta ta! He’s not dangerous. He’s not even a kémé, just a kitsune."

Since my audience is English, I write the initial actions in English. Kokeyera, the speaker here, directs her speech to the two archers, her friends, when she says "Áva qualta ta!", then she remembers the mixed company and switches to a common speech that everybody understands to include everybody in the conversation and make sure the meaning is carried across, though for the sake of anybody curious enough, I leave a translation of the non-English that was spoken:

"Áva qualta ta!" – (Coastal Elvish), means "Don’t kill him!"

This seems to me to be entirely appropriate. Any agreements? Disgruntled complaints? Other remarks?

[Me-Nuriko]

I don't agree with what is said about -san, -kun and other such suffixes. If I read a story with Japanese origin I'll be very disturbed if the writer has used Mr., Mrs. or Miss. Granted that Saiyuki is supposed to take place in some sort of China, but Minekura is still a Japanese writer, so when a fic writer writes Mr. Hakkai or Miss Yaone I'll get annoyed. It sounds wrong. Terribly so. Even before I knew any Japanese at all, and read other stories with Japanese characters I liked the -san thing. It made me get into the right mood about the story, put me in the right surroundings if you want. Mr and Miss (or Herr or Fröken, in Swedish) makes the feeling askew.

[Salmastryon]

On the whole -san -kun -chan thing, I'm going to reiterate myself here for emphasis. These do NOT necessarily translate into Mr. or Ms. Hakkai-san would not be Mr. Hakkai by default. While people talk about how difficult it is to master politeness levels in Japanese, the truth of the matter is that English can be just as difficult.

English's levels of politeness are not set by a strict hierarchy or rule of thumb like Japanese. So you can't simply replace -sama, -san, -kun or -chan with an English equivalent. Unfortunately, you have to use judgement when translating it, and I will admit it can be difficult.

Let us take the examples of Hakkai-san and Yaone-san.

Hakkai-san:
A child, which Hakkai is teaching in a class, would call him Mr. Hakkai.
A female who is very polite and proper would call him Mr. Hakkai
A servant who is defering to Hakkai might call him Mr. Hakkai or sir.
A friend would call him simply Hakkai or some nickname.
An acquaintance would use Hakkai.

Yaone-san:
A child would call her Ms. or Miss Yaone.
A child who is close to might call her Yaone.
A gentleman would call her Miss. Yaone (Hakkai being a gentleman would call her Miss. Yaone)
A servant who is defering to her might call her Ms. Yaone, madam or just plain old miss.
A friend would call her Yaone or some nickname.
An acquaintance would use Yaone.

I didn't cover all the situations, but that should give the general idea. It can be hard to figure out if you have no experience or talent at translating (and yes translating is a talent) If you aren't sure what to use, ask someone. There are plenty of people here familiar with Japanese. Heck, ask me. I know enough Japanese and English to tell you if you got it wrong.

[Me-Nuriko]

Salmastryon said:

On the whole -san -kun -chan thing, I'm going to reiterate myself here for emphasis. These do NOT necessarily translate into Mr. or Ms. Hakkai-san would not be Mr. Hakkai by default.

I know you said this before, but I still say it's better to use the -san, etc.

As maybe a better example, take how different people addresses Ginji in GetBackers.
Akabane says 'Ginji-kun', Ban says 'Ginji', Hevs says 'Gin-chan', Kazuki says 'Ginji-san'. There is no way you can get the proper addressing if you translate that to English, Mister or no Mister.

I do have a more or less fluently Japanese speaking member in my family, and I've talked this over with her and she agrees with me.

[Blood_Debt]

I've scoured my language dictonaries, listened to the original versions, and searched the internet... and I *think* Daijobo means are you okay? Am I right? Maybe we should start a treanslation thread. But if there's one already... I soooo knew that

[Salmastryon]

Daijoubu literally means "safe" but generally in english it means "okay" as in <i>I'm okay</i>, but not "okay" as in <i>Okay, I understand</i>.