So what would kill our favourite bisshounnen?

[narrizan]

;D Ok I was just wondering about this. Morbid I know. But they have pulled through quite alot and the only thing I could think off ... is each other.

Physically in limited form Hakkai is at least as strong as Goku. If you go by the "Be There" arc. He does manage to block Goku even in a weakened and wounded state. He has to be pretty strong to kill all those youkai as well. Granted that a lot of them were probably harmless - there is a possibility of women and children being in that number.

It would be interesting to see a standoff between daemon Hakkai and Seiten Taisei.

Gojyo and Sanzo. Gojyo is probably physically stronger than Sanzo, having height and weight on him. However, Sanzo does have some pretty nifty moves. And monks do have defence training and the like don't they? Wushu and all that sort of thing. Managing to knee Goku (as ST) in the "Sandstorm" story. He does have the shoureju (sorry if I spelt that incorrectly) and the Sutra. I guess if he really had to he could Makai Tenjo them to damnation.

Homura, Shien and Zenon had a good go, and they were gods. The Kou - tachi are always having a good go. No one has managed it yet. They are not infallible... ... are they? So really the only conclusion I could come up with is the only people who can defeat them is them!

Okay I ramble. I was just thinking. Anyother thoughts anyone else?

[cesmith]

narrizan said:

It would be interesting to see a standoff between daemon Hakkai and Seiten Taisei.

Gojyo and Sanzo. Gojyo is probably physically stronger than Sanzo, having height and weight on him.

Sanzo does... have the shoureju (sorry if I spelt that incorrectly) and the Sutra. I guess if he really had to he could Makai Tenjo them to damnation.

So really the only conclusion I could come up with is the only people who can defeat them is them!

As the manga is going now we will be able to see the infamous face-off between Youkai-Hakkai and Seiten Taisen. (I want the next chapter NOW!!!) ;D

Gojyo would be considerably stronger than Sanzo, really, since he is a half-breed and as you say, taller and heavier...but I have to agree, Sanzo's gun and sutra should be able to take the other 3 out, IF he has time to use them. Do you think Hakkai's shield would be able to protect them from the gun???

As for them defeating themselves, do you mean by their constant fighting amongst themselves?? Or if they were to ever go berserk because of the wave? Gojyo would never stand a chance against Hakkai and Goku, that is a given. If Sanzo hesitated even a minute, he, too would be dead. Between Hakkai and Goku, I'm not really sure. Part of me really leans toward Hakkai winning.

[narrizan]

Ahaha! I didn't mean the in fighting...that's just de-stressing. I think on their part.

*cries and pouts* Aaaarg! I 'm not really up to date with the manga lately. So are we really heading towards such a battle?

I agree with you that Gojyo wouldn't stand a chance...however the heartbreaking thing about Gojyo is that he would still try and talk them out of it. Because my belief is that Gojyo truly believes in being able to reach the good inside everybody even if it is a lost cause. That is probably just me though. Also because of his bloodline how much will the Minus Wave affect him...if at all, as at the moment he doesn't need limiters.

Sanzo is another uncertainty, because for all the way that he speaks of them he probably will hesitate in using the gun on them. Although I suppose he could use the Sutra to bind them, or stop them momentarily until such a time he could deal with the problem.

As the journey progresses I do believe that Hakkai is getting meaner, nastier... not quite the right words but I hope you get what I mean. ;DI don't know if this is just his darker side coming to the surface as the journey wears him out more or if it is an effect of the "Evil plaguing the land" as it were!

And yes, part of me leans towards one where Hakkai would gain the upper hand. Can't help it I guess. *SIgh!*

[cesmith]

I wasn't thinking so much of their de-stressing fights. More their differing approaches to the problems they face. Sanzo so coldly focused on *The Journey*, letting almost nothing slow him down and Gojyo intent on seeing the good in others and wanting to help if he can. The differences could boil over into more very verbal and physical fights as their patience and tolerance get worn down as the journey continues.

Another place that Sanzo and Gojyo will surely *bump heads* will be when they finally have to face Kou, Doku and Yaone for real. If it happens, how could Gojyo be expected to fight, let alone possibly kill, his own brother?

So far, all of the hanyou have been sane, so I don't think the minus wave affects them in that way, all the more reason to believe our poor kappa wouldn't stand a chance if the other 2 ever are affected.

Sometimes I think Hakkai is just getting more comfortable with who and what he has become and since his more bloodthirsty self is needed for all of them to survive, he allows it to surface more and more. And yes, it could also just be surfacing more often because he is getting tired of hiding it too.

[narrizan]

I guess that is just the right phrase for it...Hakkai being comfortable with who/what he is. ;D He seems to be more short tempered[extra polite] of late.

I think that Gojyo would really rather not kill his brother. However when they met again at the start of their journey, they did say to each other that the path they chose was how they had decided to live their life. So I think if it did boil down to it. They would have a good go at it just short of killing each other.

Another thing that could just be the way I see things is that Sanzo and Gojyo are more alike than they like to admit. Just that they do things differently.

Plus do you think Hakkai would start travelling sans limiters?

[cesmith]

I remember when I first started reading Kanshu, she too felt that Sanzo and Gojyo were similar personalities, two sides of a coin, as she put it. When they are described it is usually as fire and ice.

Hakkai without his limiters??? I think that he is so frightened by what he might do to the few people he cares about that it might not be possible for him to ever allow it. And yet, it might be one of the deciding factors in the final battle.

[narrizan]

I almost hate it when we're sort of right with the guesses... thank you for the link in the spoiler section. All I can say from the half that I've seen is that daemon Hakkai is "HAWT!" Sorry I could not resist fan-girling then!

Hakkai seems to have his daemon-ness under control, from the few times now that we've seen him take the limiters off. Do you think it's a time thing. The longer he has them off the more the Minus wave affects him. Maybe its a will thing. I've seen it mentioned somewhere before that some are not so susceptible to it as others maybe.

The two that we have seen that have turned were. Yakumo (in Snowdrop) and Rampa(the Artist Guy). After all Kougaiji and Co. are managing just fine. Although Kou and Lirin may have special dispensation being kind of like super daemons by bloodline.

The others Doku and Yaone, even Zakuro seem ok.

So the Sanzo-ikkou as you say will need Hakkai sans limiters when it comes down the final stages though. As you said (and I tend to agree) that he is getting tired of his facade. The smiles and the double edged politeness. Although perhaps some of it has to be with being able to let go of some of the past as well.

How do you think the rest of the ikkou would accept him. Goku has already admitted the Hakkai other form is "Scary" and prefers him with limiters, but still feels a certain kind of awe. Gojyo being who he is (and why we love him so) will accept him whatever/however he chooses. I think the only one with the stumbling block would be Sanzou.

Aargh! I can't wait for more. Need more Reload...like NOW! *oops! fangirling again.!* Hehehe!

[cesmith]

Fangirling is part of the reason we are here at the message board. When I start getting all gushy over Hakkai my Husband just starts smiling and nodding and tells my son to agree with me so I don't become dangerous. ;D ;D

I don't think that Sanzo would trust that Hakkai could hold *himself* together when in youkai form. I'm looking forward to the next couple of chapters of RELOAD to see if he starts to loose his sanity the longer he is in youkai form AND if the power he has as a youkai makes him want to use the form more often. After all, he really doesn't know what he is capable of without his limiters.

I think Goku thinks that Hakkai is scary in his youkai form because he isn't the Hakkai that Goku knows.

[narrizan]

Do you think that Sanzo will ever trust anybody a wholly? I think he comes close with Goku. However it is sad that he won't/can't let anyone else through.

I just missed the latest Zero sum by half an hour Never mind, I just have to be very patient. for Reload 7 to come out! (I just look at the pics now As my Japanese is v.v. limited!)

I can't help but I have to say it...I am the proud owner of Salty Dog 4 with Hakkai as our cover guy looking very droolworthy indeed !

Sorry that is kind of digressing here isn't it ?

[cesmith]

The Kinokuniya in my mall will HOPEFULLY have Salty Dog 4 in soon, and even though I shouldn't I will be picking it up without hesitation. ;D

I think that Sanzo, Hakkai and Gojyo have troubles trusting the others with their emotions BUT when it comes to fighting they instinctively know the others will watch their backs during battle. The problem with trusting a limiter-less Hakkai is that Sanzo doesn't know him and YoukaiHakkai hasn't earned Sanzo's trust the way Hakkai, Goku and even Gojyo has. Youkai Hakkai also seems to enjoy letting out the traits he shares with Gonou, the very traits of violence that created him and then add to that the advances in Hakkai's Chi use that YoukaiHakkai can also use and you have a very powerful adversary.