[[Saiyuki Question]]

[kitsuneoni]

After reading the latest update of "Somewhere I Belong" (Iapetus' wonderful, wonderful fic) I was finally INSPIRED for a new fic.

But I have some questions all on the same topic:

Do you consider Hakkai's demon side evil? If he was to be purged of evil, would he become human again?

Or do you consider his demon side part and parcel of him, not an evil that plagues him?

Or is his demon side only savage/murderous *because* of the minus wave?

I am so happy and excited about this new project of mine... I was glowing after I read the latest chapter of SIB and I began to fantasize something really random, not Saiyuki related, and then (I was half-day dreaming) I said a sentence in my dream that suddenly made me go "Oh!"

And it all fell into place! *hugs self*

I'm thinking of calling it "Ragione," which is an Italian word and has multiple meanings, roughly:
1. the reason/purpose
2. you're correct/right
3. reasoning
4. wisdom
5. accepting something because of inevitable reasons
6. with violence
7. logic
8. a discussion/theme
9. calculating
10. species/qualities

and more... it's a very versatile word

[kanshu]

Well... if you go by tradition, one can become a 'youkai' by doing evil things. However, not all youkai are neccessarily evil - basically, a youkai is DIFFERENT from a human, either in looks, behaviour/culture or both.

As for Hakkai, he became a demon because of the blood of a thousand demons, and if you go by the anime, it doesn't matter if you kill a thousand demons, just getting into contact with the blood is enough (in the episode with Gojyo and Hakkai's friend from their village, the bad guy creates a youkai out of a harmless insect by dipping it into the blood of a thousand youkai).
Hakkai has a temper - with or without the minus wave. That's something a LOT of people tend to overlook when writing the character. His anger got out of control, and thus he killed a thousand youkai and half of his village - I don't think it was cold and detached, but fueled by hatred, maybe a need for 'justice' in that horribly derailed "an eye for an eye" policy that Cho Gonou seems to represent.
Gojyo is regularly scared when Hakki gets angry 'beneath the smile', and Hakkai can 'sit' him with a single look. That must be based on Hakkai's behaviour before the minus wave.
Just a thought, but maybe Hakkai reminds Gojyo about his mom. He knows what 'unlimited Hakkai' is capable of.
Anyway, what I do think is that the minus wave makes it harder for Hakkai to restrain himself in his demon form. Just like Goku, who was still somewhat controllable before the minus wave - and now is reigned by blood lust.

So, if you ask me, Hakkai *is* a murderous/savage person, demon or not. No normal person, not even one to revenge a loved one, would go as far as slaughtering every single of his 1000+ victims by hand.

[Salmastryon]

hmm... OptiMoose covered this good already, but here is an additional thought. Hakkai doesn't so much lose his temper but go into a rage. My brother is like that he has to keep a tight leash on his anger cause if he loses it he goes into a rage.

I think I've only seen him loose it once or twice and each time he ended up breaking things and basically left because he didn't want to hurt anyone. The rest of the time my brother is very easy going, although, when he gets irritated he can seem arrogant.

I think Hakkai perhaps doesn't have nearly the control my brother does?

Note: Rage - To ravage; to prevail without restraint, or with destruction or fatal effect.

[MsCongeniality]

Warning: The following is my .02 and people are probably not necessarily going to agree with me. This response has also been formulated on very little sleep. Any rambling or lack of sense is hereby disavowed and will be denied at a future time, when or if the author is more conscious.

One of the characteristics of the personalities and settings developed in Saiyuki is that very few of them are 'evil' per se. Mostly, what you have are antagonists rather than villains and while you may not agree with their actions, their motives are well thought out and 'evil' consequences are more a function of not giving a shit how the rest of the world is affected rather than...say, a wish to do the world as a whole harm.

Youkai, in general, are shown as simply being another part of society at large. Separate from humans, but drivien by similar motivations and emotions and certainly not inherently evil. There are examples of 'evil youkai' in the story, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

So...if a youkai isn't inherently evil, the question becomes is Hakkai inherently evil.

He is, without question, dangerous. He should, by rights, scare the everliving crap out of whomever he faces when his demeanor shifts from 'placid and pleasant' to 'intense' no matter what form he is in.

As a lone human, he decimated the forces of a youkai powerful enough that other youkai would submit to him (e.g., Yaone being turned over as one of his toys). As a youkai, even with his limiters, the antagonists they fight consistenly comment on the level of power he wields in battle. I have not yet seen an instance where we are given a clear indication of what he is capable of without his limiters - or even to what extent he is affected by the minus wave. In the anime, when he removes his limiters, they are on again the next time you see him -- he obviously kept enough presence of mind to power himself down when the need was ended because there was nobody to put them on for him. That being said, I don't think my knowledge of the material is extensive enough for me to really be giving examples here. There's very likely contradictory material available that I just haven't seen yet.

I am certainly no psychologist, but it seems to me that Hakkai is borderline sociopathic. He's not truly sociopathic, because he does feel remorse for his actions and he is aware of the rules of society and does see value in them most of the time, but he also originates from the fringes of society and lives very much by his own moral code and if that is transgressed he will mete out punishment without mercy. It's not evil, but in many cases he will almost certainly go against the mores of society which are what most people judge 'right', 'wrong', or 'evil' by.

Anyway...those are my rambling thoughts. As always, your mileage may vary. I think I was heading somewhere with that but lost it halfway through or so.

Oh, and for the record...my assessment may seem harsh, but I lubs me some Hakkai. He's actually my favorite character from the series. ;-)

[kitsuneoni]

Thanks you guys... I actually agree with your points of view, and it all makes sense.

Would, however, your opinion change if it was someone else who was turning into a demon, such as... umm... Sanzo?

What could be seen as evil in Saiyuki? Is there anything?

[kanshu]

Well, you go for individuals here, and as an individual, Sanzo has only killed people in self-defense so far. If you take it on a grade, it's certainly less evil than killing innocents out of misled revenge.
BTW, I wonder if Hakkai feels less sorry for killing innocents, than for being unable to safe his Kanan. Something he says about Youkai in the burial arc made me wonder - how he absolutely hates demons. There wasn't a single thread of remorse or sorry in there for killing innocent youkai, children and babies.

In any case, what you are looking for is "does belonging to a certain race (youkai) make people evil" - the answer is plain and simple "no".
Yokai have a free will, and therefore, each individual is responsible for their own actions. Of course, if an individual performs certain actions that harm others for no reason but the individual's self satisfactory purposes, then that can be considered evil. IMO, it's all about intent, purpose.
However, you have the matter of the minus wave and mind control. The Youkai have no choice there, the wave drives them insane and they commited crimes they would not even dream about under normal circumstances. Does that make them evil? I don't think so. The choice to do bad things is not there.
However, if at one point the minus wave would stop, and the Youkai in question would still do evil things, then that would make them 'evil', too.

With the same argumentation, you could call Goku evil, because he turns into a murderous individual without his limiter and has no control at all. I mean, the limiter is basically a "bettering" device - does it make Goku or Hakkai a better person? Of course, it influences their behaviour, supresses instincts or power, maybe it works like some psychopharmaka that keeps schizophrenic patients from going nuts...

The question can't be answered 'the easy way', unless you want to dive deeply into the pond of prejudice.

[MsCongeniality]

Would my opinion change if someone else were to turn into a youkai? No...not really. Not unless something were to happen that factured the individual's mind and heart in the process. To me, they then become tragic and not really evil.

kitsune-oni said:

What could be seen as evil in Saiyuki? Is there anything?

You know, I'm wondering if we're not getting into the big fuzzy realm of 'interpretation' here. I know what my own interpretation of 'evil' is and I am judging characters based on it*, I suspect that you may be working off of a very different script on that count and that is going to make all the difference in the world.

Ultimately, you have to define these concepts for yourself and then decide how they fit into your view of the worldset and finally, how the characters fit within that worldset.



*If you really want to know what my views on evil are, you can ask otherwise I don't see the need to fill up the board with my mental meanderings.

[kitsuneoni]

Thank you, everyone!

All the discussion cleared up what I wanted to do. *beams happily* And gave me new ideas!

*hugs everyone*