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Post by Languish-Dreams on Jul 25, 2005 10:21:38 GMT -5
Yeah I couldn't stop myself. Since the discussion thread for 'Of a Place Long Ago' helped a great deal, I thought adding one for this story might help me as well.
Granted, I don't have very many problems with this story. I know exactly where it's going and what I'm going to do. I do, however, have a few questions regarding it. (For those of you who remember it.) I know it can't be easy to remember a story that was broken into three parts, each about 14-15 chapters, but bear with me.
The questions are pretty basic:
Did the pairings take away from the story? I enjoy writing 39 and 58, but not in sacrificing the plot for their sake.
Did Yamei's explanation feel like a information dump to you? (Actually, it kind of did to me. That's why I'm asking. I can re-work this pretty easily and probably will.)
Now that I'm thinking about it, how did you guys feel about Yamei? She's the first original character (besides our friend 'Shouri'.) that I've ever created and I was always a little hesitant in writing scenes with her in them. The last thing I wanted was to create a Mary Sue. (shudders)
I tried to be a bit vague at points in order to mis-direct people into believing one thing when something totally different was happening. I.E. the fact that Goku was actually 'dreaming' everything in the first part. Was it too obvious or did I make that work alright?
I know the inclusion of Kenji and Ran probably has a few people going 'WTF'. That's the idea. *grin* I actually realized, after going over parts of the story, that I have given away a bit too much information on them. So that'll be re-worked. But what do you guys think about them? It's pretty obvious who/what they are, but I'm curious on your thoughts.
And I have to ask: Who do you think the main antagonist is? It's obviously someone the party has met up with before, I've made that clear. But who could it be? I want to see what you guys think here. I'm interested in knowing how well I'm pulling the end shock factor off. heheh.
And if there's anything else, feel free to discuss. Getting feedback for my stories like this is fantastic. ;D And extremely helpful.
If you can remember, Insomnia Delusions was my very first piece of fanfiction ever. So this story is kind of my baby. *L* But I want real, honest opinions on this story. Shred it if you want, but I want to know what you think.
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Post by narrizan on Jul 25, 2005 22:23:02 GMT -5
;)Well you asked so here goes. I hope it helps in some way. ;D Did the pairings take away from the story? I enjoy writing 39 and 58, but not in sacrificing the plot for their sake. I think most of it was done okay, although perhaps some of it probably didn't add that much to the story. But you know me! , some of the 58 like the shower bit! even though i loved it completely, it was probably not needed. But if you do want to re work it, perhaps you should just leave it at looks and touches and thoughts. I feel you actually used a lighter touch with the 93, perhaps because of who Sanzo is. So if you used a similar style with the other two, and leave it as hinted at. Ok that will probably get me into trouble with some folks!!! ;D Did Yamei's explanation feel like a information dump to you? (Actually, it kind of did to me. That's why I'm asking. I can re-work this pretty easily and probably will.) it did seem quite 'chunky' in places, although i put it down to the fact that they didn't have much time and they needed to know all that she knew of what had gone on before. I don't think Yamei has stepped into Mary Suedom, and actually you're quite safe there i think her interactions with the group are just so, and she's quite a normal person, and so yeah i think she's ok. I tried to be a bit vague at points in order to mis-direct people into believing one thing when something totally different was happening. I.E. the fact that Goku was actually 'dreaming' everything in the first part. Was it too obvious or did I make that work alright? that was for me quite cleverly done because i didn't really guess at it until i was supposed to anyway! and then i was hooked! I know the inclusion of Kenji and Ran probably has a few people going 'WTF'. That's the idea. *grin* I actually realized, after going over parts of the story, that I have given away a bit too much information on them. So that'll be re-worked. But what do you guys think about them? It's pretty obvious who/what they are, but I'm curious on your thoughts. If you re-work their parts fine, I think the only 58 truly essential here are the bits when one or the other has those 'flashes' of memory/dream, because it's part of the story as who they are. So here again as I said before if you hinted at it and perhaps have like a lot of under current therefore creating a strong bond that is 'obviously' there. Umm did that make sense to you? And I have to ask: Who do you think the main antagonist is? It's obviously someone the party has met up with before, I've made that clear. But who could it be? I want to see what you guys think here. I'm interested in knowing how well I'm pulling the end shock factor off. heheh. Well I have my thoughts on that but the ones I will throw down, was perhaps it is Nii, using an agent...like the Zakuro type thing, another idea i had was um...Hir also indirectly, you know as some part of a test of some kind. Well I guess you got more than two cents worth. And I hope I haven't upset anyone with this least of all You, my dear LD. If i have stepped on some toes, I humbly apologise! much love as always - zan
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Post by LD on Jul 25, 2005 22:51:22 GMT -5
*L* You can't step on my toes dear Zan. I asked for honest opinions, and I really appreciate getting them. I agree with using a more subtle approach with the 39 and 58. I think I was going for a bit of fanservice on some parts.. I actually have an idea to help get rid of the 'information dump' part of the story. Since it is suppose to be a legend, perhaps they could pick up pieces here and there around town. That way Yamei wouldn't have to explain the entire thing herself in one chapter. *L* As much as you like it, I was considering re-writing the 58 out. And, oddly enough given my 39 fixation, I was thinking about writing the pairings out completely. They're nothing more than fanservice (to myself as well) in a story whose plot isn't boosted by it. It's mostly because beginning a non-canon relationship takes building up to make it a decent story. Trying to incorporate the beginnings of a relationship into a story whose plot isn't ABOUT the relationship makes it too choppy for my tastes. Granted, my tastes have changed as I've continued to write, but I feel that starting a relationship between these characters requires a lot more build-up and chapter space than this plot can allow. I think just hinting at a much stronger bond would achieve the same effect, without the sudden dropping of a relationship into it. Anyway, that's one thing of a few I was thinking about. *L* You've already helped me out Zan, thanks. ;D Add more if you think of it! I asked, so I can't see myself getting offended by honest thoughts and suggestions. So everyone chip in with what you think!
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Terra too lazy to login
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Post by Terra too lazy to login on Jul 26, 2005 1:45:32 GMT -5
1. Did the pairing take away from the story? Yes and no. The pairings took nothing away but didn't add much. If they were cut, I wouldn't cry too hard. If they stayed, I also wouldn't cry too hard. Elaboration on the pairing issue below everything else.
2. Was Yamei an information dump? Yes. I like your folktale idea, I think that'll work fine.
3. Was Yamei a Mary Sue? No, and here's why: She didn't come with the gang at the beginning of the third part. She served her purpose (info dump and presenter of grandpa) and then was disposed of. Also, there was no hint of all four guys lusting after her.
4. I was trying to be vague. Was I? Dude, I re-read that first one and I still had no idea where the dreams begin and end! Can you give me a Sparknotes or something? Yes, that was executed well. (P.S. No, don't go make it more obvious. I'm really slow on the uptake.)
5. Thoughts on Kenji and Ran? They confuse me? A lot? Are they the future or the past incarnations? I can take or leave these characters. On one hand, their story is interesting. On the other hand, what do they have to do with main plot? But, seriously, my thoughts are so neutral that I'd like to toss the ball on that to others.
6. Have you guessed the main villain yet? It's someone they know! Really? No, I didn't know that! I haven't a clue. Unless you mean that the sword possessed Goku but beyond that, I don't know!
Elaborations on pairings if you want more than the reader's digest version. Now, what I'm about to say should not heavily influence what you do. This is my personal opinion. But it is the reason behind what I'm arguing. I don't ship Sanzo/Goku in a sexual relationship. I see them in a father/son relationship. Yes, I know I'm in the minority. So if you took out the sexual 39 and replaced it with paternal and filial love, I would like that. I do ship Gojyo/Hakkai in a sexual relationship. Great, huh? Except I try to avoid sex scenes in fics I read. (I avoid try to avoid sex period). I prefer what zan said: the "signficicant looks" (TM) and such. Sometimes I felt that the pairings were a distraction (see number 5) from the action-packed plot. You've mentioned that you might do a cut and just hint at a stronger relationship. In my opinion, this might be best. 39 shippers can think "Hm, they want each other in bed, oh yes" while I (and anyone else [ha!] who feels the same way as me) can go "Hm, Sanzo is finally opening his heart to his 'Kouryuu'. It's good to see them be a family." Actually, now that my mind is on this, hinting might make K and R work better too. Because if the relationship is out, then there's no suspense in the other guys and makes it too obvious who's who. Now that I've said my speel, don't let the word of one non-39-shipper and non-sex-scene-liker influence your decision. I'm actually more flexible than I was in my youth. If the pairings and sex scenes remain, it won't bother me.
Terra3
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Post by LD logged out on Jul 26, 2005 3:51:38 GMT -5
1. Did the pairing take away from the story? Yes and no. The pairings took nothing away but didn't add much. If they were cut, I wouldn't cry too hard. If they stayed, I also wouldn't cry too hard. Elaboration on the pairing issue below everything else. Hmm. If they didn't really add anything, then why keep them? Like I said before at the time they were more or less fanservice and, in the back of my mind, a kind of challenge to see if I could write a 39 relationship well. Almost seven months later, I've gone back and seen the challenge as one for another story. And I've seen enough fanservice to have that out of my system. If I want to write it, I can save it for a relationship-based story instead of incorporating it into a story where its presence isn't needed. But I don't want to change the story just because my feelings have changed if it works. That would be fixing something that it's broken. I could go either way personally, but I want what makes the story more interesting and readable. I'm strange. (L) But that's why I wanted the opinions. ;D 3. Was Yamei a Mary Sue? No, and here's why: She didn't come with the gang at the beginning of the third part. She served her purpose (info dump and presenter of grandpa) and then was disposed of. Also, there was no hint of all four guys lusting after her. Thank God. (L) 4. I was trying to be vague. Was I? Dude, I re-read that first one and I still had no idea where the dreams begin and end! Can you give me a Sparknotes or something? Yes, that was executed well. (P.S. No, don't go make it more obvious. I'm really slow on the uptake.) (chuckles) I'm glad I pulled that off then. But telling you would ruin the effect. I wanted it to read a bit like an episode. No obvious dream flashes or anything, just a smooth transition straight from the real world into Goku's delusion. Basically, you're reading it like you're only following Goku; and Goku couldn't tell the difference either. Yay! I confused you AND him.! (L) 5. Thoughts on Kenji and Ran? They confuse me? A lot? Are they the future or the past incarnations? I can take or leave these characters. On one hand, their story is interesting. On the other hand, what do they have to do with main plot? But, seriously, my thoughts are so neutral that I'd like to toss the ball on that to others. Ah. I forgot that the trilogy isn't finished yet. You won't see what they have to do with anything until the end. (L) I will say that they are suppose to be past incarnations somewhere inbetween Tenpou and Hakkai and Kenren and Gojyo. Since (to my knowledge) there's nothing that stated that any of the boys went straight from their God form to the Saiyuki boys we know, I wanted to explore the options a bit and play around. But they do have a point. (L) Any ideas out there on how to make it more clear that they're past incarnations? 6. Have you guessed the main villain yet? It's someone they know! Really? No, I didn't know that! I haven't a clue. Unless you mean that the sword possessed Goku but beyond that, I don't know! Muahahahahahaa! Elaborations on pairings if you want more than the reader's digest version. Now, what I'm about to say should not heavily influence what you do. This is my personal opinion. But it is the reason behind what I'm arguing. I don't ship Sanzo/Goku in a sexual relationship. I see them in a father/son relationship. Yes, I know I'm in the minority. So if you took out the sexual 39 and replaced it with paternal and filial love, I would like that. I do ship Gojyo/Hakkai in a sexual relationship. Great, huh? Except I try to avoid sex scenes in fics I read. (I avoid try to avoid sex period). I prefer what zan said: the "signficicant looks" (TM) and such. Sometimes I felt that the pairings were a distraction (see number 5) from the action-packed plot. You've mentioned that you might do a cut and just hint at a stronger relationship. In my opinion, this might be best. 39 shippers can think "Hm, they want each other in bed, oh yes" while I (and anyone else [ha!] who feels the same way as me) can go "Hm, Sanzo is finally opening his heart to his 'Kouryuu'. It's good to see them be a family." Actually, now that my mind is on this, hinting might make K and R work better too. Because if the relationship is out, then there's no suspense in the other guys and makes it too obvious who's who. Now that I've said my speel, don't let the word of one non-39-shipper and non-sex-scene-liker influence your decision. I'm actually more flexible than I was in my youth. If the pairings and sex scenes remain, it won't bother me. Terra3 No no. I wanted the opinions of the people who ship pairings and those who don't. ;D But it's more for the sake of the story than the readers. No matter which way I go with it, there's going to be someone who isn't happy about it. Some people want the obvious, some want it vague, and some don't want relationships at all. But I want what's best for the story. If the relationships are a distraction or are taking away from the story and the plot, then they aren't needed. Distractions can be a good thing, like a sub-plot within the story. But I have that with Kenren and Ran; I don't need the pairings. At the time, I just wanted them. (L) But now it's not a matter of what I WANT. It's a matter of what the story NEEDS. Because I can always write a story around the forming of relationships between them. hehhee (I can feel the ideas for that already forming...cackle) Thanks for the input Terra! Very helpful. Come on guys, jump in!
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Terra too lazy to login
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Post by Terra too lazy to login on Jul 26, 2005 22:06:10 GMT -5
"Ah. I forgot that the trilogy isn't finished yet. You won't see what they have to do with anything until the end. (L) I will say that they are suppose to be past incarnations somewhere inbetween Tenpou and Hakkai and Kenren and Gojyo. Since (to my knowledge) there's nothing that stated that any of the boys went straight from their God form to the Saiyuki boys we know, I wanted to explore the options a bit and play around.
But they do have a point. (L) Any ideas out there on how to make it more clear that they're past incarnations?"
I figured they were past but I wasn't sure. Okay, so they have a point. They can stay.
"If the relationships are a distraction or are taking away from the story and the plot, then they aren't needed. Distractions can be a good thing, like a sub-plot within the story. But I have that with Kenren and Ran; I don't need the pairings. At the time, I just wanted them. (L) But now it's not a matter of what I WANT. It's a matter of what the story NEEDS."
Well, I'll make a firm stand then for clear things up for you. The pairings should go. They are distracting. Kenji and Ran's subplot works fine because their distraction has a point, according to you. But the pairings can go and grow up in some other fanfic where they will be the center of attention and eat tons of sweets and do tap dance recitals.
Rule of thumb: Does it have a point (remember that adding atmosphere or developing character are important points too)? Would the fanfic fall apart without it? It can stay.
Terra3
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Post by kanshu on Jul 27, 2005 0:57:35 GMT -5
(I have not read the story, but...) I agree on Terra's "does it have a point" rule. While it is a lot of fun to throw in things, relationships or awoogas, there's also the question on "What does it do to the story". Like, a little fun breather in between action ladden scenes is great, to calm things down. But if you have too much of the in-between stuff, the story will start to drag, become gooey, and the audience at some point starts skipping scenes. As for the reincarnation timeframe.... that's rather simple. Use Gyuumao as timeframe. If they are born shortly after Gyuumao was sealed, there should be still some aftereffect/terror from his rule. You could also drop remark about "Even 170 years after Gyuumao's death, relationships between youkai and humans were far from being relaxed". Or have a character learn about it in class, have a festivity relating to the event... "250th anniversary of the defeat of Gyuumao".
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Post by narrizan on Jul 27, 2005 1:55:28 GMT -5
Hi me again, ;D just a quick note before I start packing [quote author=LD board=languishdreams thread=1122304898 post=1122349882 As much as you like it, I was considering re-writing the 58 out. And, oddly enough given my 39 fixation, I was thinking about writing the pairings out completely. They're nothing more than fanservice (to myself as well) in a story whose plot isn't boosted by it. [/quote] I actually think that this is a good idea. I think the story will even gain by it and may perhaps make it a stronger piece. ;D Optimoose's idea of dropping the hint about the timeframe is a good idea. As one of them is a librarian (if I recall rightly) you could say, read something about Gyumao in the historical archives or somesuch. anyway must go now -zan
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Post by Languish-Dreams on Jul 27, 2005 14:25:05 GMT -5
Excellent suggestions. Thank you all very much! ;D I'll keep those questions in mind whenever I'm writing. Thanks for your thoughts Optimoose, even if you haven't read the story. The more the merrier! We'll consider the pairings issue sorted. Moving on - without the pairings, how was characterization? Am I catching their personalities alright or am I blending them together a bit? I'm curious. And, are their any issues with the story that I haven't mentioned? Maybe there's a part that's too confusing or over-done or...or...hell anything. *L* I'm nitpicking some of these stories before I post them back up. A few of them, like Goku's Firsts, I'm not concerned about plot and characterization because that's not what I'm trying to achieve. Well I take that back. I'm not AS concerned about plot and characterization. Mostly because GF is a bunch of silly one-shots. Their only intention is a good laugh and a break from the norm. Now something like 'Surviving'.....I should probably create a thread for that one too. Damn. I'm actually not sure if I should create a thread for that story. Anyway. Is there anything you remember from the story that just made you go 'huh?' or seemed off to you? And if anyone wants to create a thread to discuss any of my stories, especially one of the ones I've re-posted, feel free. I love nitpicking. ;D I just need help in doing it. *L*
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Terra too lazy to login
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Post by Terra too lazy to login on Jul 28, 2005 18:24:05 GMT -5
"As for the reincarnation timeframe.... that's rather simple. Use Gyuumao as timeframe. If they are born shortly after Gyuumao was sealed, there should be still some aftereffect/terror from his rule. You could also drop remark about "Even 170 years after Gyuumao's death, relationships between youkai and humans were far from being relaxed". Or have a character learn about it in class, have a festivity relating to the event... "250th anniversary of the defeat of Gyuumao". "
But keep in mind that Gyumaoh was sealed shortly after Goku arrived in Heaven and Konzen, Kenren, and Tenpou were still running around. And we have no idea as to how long Goku was there before everyone else croaked. So make sure that it's long enough that we don't think "Um, weren't Kenren and Tenpou still alive?" or "Um, shouldn't they be, like, infants?"
Nothing in the trilogy really jumped out at me that needs looking over as far as I can remember.
Are you keeping the bloopers?
Terra3
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Post by Languish-Dreams on Jul 28, 2005 21:52:09 GMT -5
According to FFN rules bloopers are not allowed. I assumed at the time that it meant taking a scene from an anime or manga (or book/movie/tv show) and making bloopers from that. But I'd rather be safe than sorry. I've yet to get clarification from the site on this point. So until I hear otherwise the bloopers will have to stay gone. Which is actually a good thing as I seemed to have lost them at some point when I was transferring stuff from e-mails to my hard drive. *L*
But if they're okay to post, I can make more. *grin* I never run out of ideas for those. Oh Gawd. ;D
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Post by kanshu on Jul 29, 2005 1:30:43 GMT -5
Gyuumao's sealing and the events that lead to 'TheEnd' are closely connected, time wise. Keep in mind that Goku has been reported sitting in that cave of his for 500 years, and that means that there can't be more than a decade or so between Gyuumao's defeat and the incidents leading to 'The End'... - since it's said that Gyuumao was defeated 500 years ago by Nataku.
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Post by Guest on Aug 3, 2005 4:21:58 GMT -5
I have to say I happen to like the pairings in the story, and the Insomnia Trilogy was what got me intersted in the Sanzo/Goku pairing. I think that it being in the story shows that Sanzo realizes that Goku is becoming adult. I did find the Kenji and Ran kind of confusing. As for who I thought the enemy is, I just assumed that it was Nataku's father, whose name is currently escaping me.
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Post by Eclipse02134 on Aug 3, 2005 13:13:43 GMT -5
I think having the relantionships in the story show the characters emotional growth over the series of events, and would like to see it left in. If they were removed would there be a way to get copies of the orginals, since I didn't even think to save them.
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Post by LD logged out on Aug 4, 2005 16:28:47 GMT -5
Sorry for not being on for awhile. I've been playing with a nasty little tooth that is no more! Yay! (owww) Like I said, I have no problem with leaving the pairings in or out. But after talking here and looking the story over, I have to agree that the pairings don't really add anything to the story. So because of that, they are coming out. I still have the originals, of course, and would be glad to send them out to anyone who wants them. The edited version won't be up for awhile, since I have quite a few projects in the editing factory right now. I might go insane from all this. *L* But I'll probably suffer from lack of 39 eventually, so I'll more than likely end up writing a story based completely on pairings. *grin*
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