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Saiyuki
Dec 10, 2004 18:12:19 GMT -5
Post by sorchafyre on Dec 10, 2004 18:12:19 GMT -5
Ah, the delicious goodness that is Saiyuki. I must admit to being a fool for this, my second-favorite series. And since it has less... unfortunate marketing than does X/1999, it has the virtue of more consistant quality. I've seen more top quality writing in this fandom than any other.
I find I've both written and read more Saiyuki than anything else, fandom-wise. It's fascinating to me the different aspects of the characters that different authors choose to emphasize in their writing.
As for pairings- one of the joys of being an author is that you get to experiment in the ways human psyches can fit together. Good stories come in all letters of the rating system.
This is the place to discuss your take on the characters, and talk about what makes your favorite group/pairing/character/theme... well, your favorite.
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Saiyuki
Dec 10, 2004 23:53:02 GMT -5
Post by KarotsaMused on Dec 10, 2004 23:53:02 GMT -5
Well, *rubs head*, isn't this -your- forum? So you should tell *me* Gotta agree, though, that I'm glad Saiyuki isn't yet as commercial as it could be. If you know me, you know my pairing. 58 alla way, but I'm beginning to edge away from it in mental process. OptiMoose got to me (not necessarily a bad thing!), and I'm thinking maybe platonic relationships ain't so bad. So (hey, this is a long process!) just pre-journey 58 and TenpouXKenren for me at the moment. And really, it's just because they're like puzzle pieces. The neatnick and the slob, the man and the boy, the soft and the harsh. Those last two sets of descriptors don't necessarily have to be respective. Oh, and the 58-to-38 transition is good. I'm such an angst-monger...but I actually haven't done any stand-alone 38 without the 58 beforehand (or, in one case, as a framing device). Character...that one's a toughie. Gojyo is by far the easiest to slip into (no puns, no puns) but the other three have their own charms as well. Each is fantastically complex, and the characters outside the four main have that same allure. But I always get a big, goofy grin on my face when Goku has his funny, half-man moments ... so all love is conditional. ;D Themes in Saiyuki are funny things. I'm not as familiar with it as I rightfully should be, but the symbolism is blatant and the themes are often drilled in. One of the most comforting motifs, however, is again found in Goku - hunger is wonderful, for the eagerness to please, the eagerness to make a mark, the emptiness to be filled, and the reminder that without sustenance nothing can function. All of those are metaphors inherent in Goku's hunger alone...or maybe I read too deeply into things - Lit class has spoiled me forever.
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Saiyuki
Dec 11, 2004 19:54:18 GMT -5
Post by sorchafyre on Dec 11, 2004 19:54:18 GMT -5
Pfffff, have to agree with you about symbolsim, I coudn't stand to read anything of any substance for about a year after getting out of school, too many English papers dissecting stories ruined it for quite awhile. But your metaphor is quite on target, I'm thinking.
I didn't want to immediately rant on my perceptions of the characters, I'm always interested in unbiased responses.
Pairings, I personally adore 58, there's just so many stories involved with that dynamic. And much cannon support for it as well.
As for 38, that's where my platonic comes in. I *see* all the indicators people use for that relationship, I just don't *feel* it. I think Hakkai and Sanzo are the two who understand each other best, who are closest of any of them. It's my personal feeling that this is too precious a thing for each of them to risk changing it by becoming physical. I've got nothing against this pairing, I think it's eminently logical, I've just never been able to "feel" it working. Are there any stories you'd recommend?
One of the aspects of Hakkai that I love to both read and play with as a writer is the darker side of Hakkai. I believe he truly can manipulate any of them, and has the strongest will of anyone in the series, he just rarely feels the need to assert himself.
Goku is straightforward, joy-of-life, reveling in the senses. I'm not so fond of him portrayed as a child, unless it's set in Gaiden of course, but see him as having these rather odd moments of naievete. Because he's not duplitious at all, he enjoys everything at face value.
Sanzo is probably the most complex of the characters, as far as internal motivations go. He's got layers... like and onion. (obligatory Shrek reference over) He's by far the most interesting and difficult character for me to get right.
As for Gojyo- he's fun. A living in the moment personality, and not nearly as one-track and stupid as he'd like people to believe.
Anyone else?
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Saiyuki
Dec 11, 2004 21:41:20 GMT -5
Post by Blood_Debt on Dec 11, 2004 21:41:20 GMT -5
Wow... deep...
As for pairings, I love smarm, it's really easy for authors just to slip into slash and sex to keep reader's attentions. However, if depicted in a good way (e.g. D-chan - love double suicide) it is alright. SanzoxGoku is my favourite pairing if reading m/m love.
What about insertions of new charaters? What do you people think of those?
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Saiyuki
Dec 11, 2004 22:08:51 GMT -5
Post by elven dreamer on Dec 11, 2004 22:08:51 GMT -5
Well, personally, now (after hanging out with all you stunning authors here ) I stick to slash because I avoid OCs. It has now been programmed into me that "OCs ARE BAAAAD" in Saiyuki, because they'll end up in a romance etc. I -have- read some good OC stories, and even some nice Mary-Sues, but I just gave up on them because now I know how'll they'll end. I'll read any pairing, but my fave is -so- 58. (I blame KarotsaMused, she's too good at it!!) But I'm fine for 38, and 39. I avoid 35 as one of them has to be rather sub and as it tends to be Sanzo, that makes him WAY OOC. The others I'm just not fond of.
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Saiyuki
Dec 11, 2004 23:11:47 GMT -5
Post by sorchafyre on Dec 11, 2004 23:11:47 GMT -5
::holds head:: I've got to look these numbers up each time, except Sanzo being 3 because the kanji for river is the kanji for 3 sideways and that's just too cool to forget. And Hakkai being 8 for the 8 admonishments. But the other two... oi, I hate numbers.
I used to think there was no way a Sanzo/Gojyo story could work, it seems they get too much pleasure out of the edged barbs they hit each other with, then I read some incredibly awesome fics that made me see how it could work, and even why. (ask me, I'll private rec them for you, link and all)
As far as OC's go... that depends on the author. If it's one I know and trust, the inclusion of an OC doesn't make me hesitate. I was in a position myself, of needing to have an OC for plot purposes. I shrugged, wrote the thing, and figured anyone who wanted to give it a try would have to decide for themselves if it worked. I think a lot of times they are necessary or can be used to provide an otherwise unobtainable insight or viewpoint. But, like candy, a few memorable ones make you wary of the rest.
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Saiyuki
Dec 12, 2004 4:24:06 GMT -5
Post by kanshu on Dec 12, 2004 4:24:06 GMT -5
I'm not writing boy's love for Saiyuki, and very, very rarely read it. Four reasons: First, there is no official canon pairing, and there's absolutely nothing hinting at anything, considering the character backgrounds and the entire traumata they suffered. Second, boy's love always means having characters lust for each other, and for me that would mean that the basic image I would need for writing them properly in my mind is them humping around.... But since I don't see them doing that (see reason 1), inserting sex betwen them would destroy any type of reasonable tension that is built up by them NOT lusting after each other. That probably doesn't make any sense to you, since it's just how my brain works, and I'm a weird person to begin with. I already had a fandom (Magnificent 7) ruined for me by writing boy's love, and reading boy's love, because all that I had stuck i n my brain was seeing them 'do it', and I could think of nothing else whenever I saw them. It totally twisted my perception of the character to the point where I began to hate my writing...and the characters for being "out of character". So, all I will ever write for Saiyuki will be smarm - that un-lusting type of deep, unfathomable love that's shared between friends, brothers by choice, and hopefully, family too. Reason three goes hand in hand with reason 1 - I'm a canon horse. Fanfic is for me a way to honour the author, and as such, I want to recreate the universe and characters as they are in the original. Exceptions are AUs, of course, but those are clearly marked as a 'step away' from the original. Reason four: A good deal of boy's love is Canon Sue. Plain, sadly and simple. And while I like a good Mary Sue, canon Sue makes me sick. At least, the Mary Sues are honest about what they are doing, instead of having the other canon-sue lovers bouncing happily because "no OC, you see"? (Apologies for being jaded and emotional here. Because I love the characters, and write them, I am not very distanced from them. I tend to react emotional on the topic, because of the connection, and because of things that happened in the past. I do feel like I have to protect 'my guys', because they can't protect themselves - they are helpless artificial characters, after all. So, I try to give them a safe haven of sorts in my non-AU-stories. They just have to be 'themselves'. Base line is: Everyone else can write or read whatever they please, but don't expect me to write or read boy's Love for Saiyuki.
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Saiyuki
Dec 12, 2004 7:10:11 GMT -5
Post by Salmastryon on Dec 12, 2004 7:10:11 GMT -5
hmm...
Saiyuki is one of those series were I have trouble seeing the characters together. And, while this has not prevented me from enjoying stories about m/m love in other fandoms before, for saiyuki there is just something that jars when I read it.
That being said, there is one pairing in saiyuki which I don't have too much trouble suspending disbelief. While I don't think in reality the HAkkai and Gojyo are together in that sense. The still have way too many issues. Especially Gojyo regarding sex. But, I don't mind reading them together. I just see it as an AU.
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Saiyuki
Dec 12, 2004 18:00:40 GMT -5
Post by KarotsaMused on Dec 12, 2004 18:00:40 GMT -5
*blush* thanks for the props on my 58, e-d
See, what Opti posted is what we've talked about in e-mails before the mb and during its first few days - see how she rubs off? There are so many other paths to explore anyhow that gratuitous pairings get boring after a while.
Heh, Sorcha, my symbolism/metaphorical tangents are actually quite notorious. In AP lit, the Dr. will call upon me as a gamble - I'll either say something totally stupid (or an inside mental connection that perhaps only myself and my friend that sits next to me will understand) or I'll come through with a burst of metaphorical insight that takes the figurative language from the passage and runs with it. (For example, Buddy and Seymour from "Franny and Zooey" chasing after their younger siblings with a tattoo gun. ;D ) But the themes are wonderfully easy to uncover in Saiyuki - they don't have to work all that hard to hide them, especially because anime and manga do not afford the ability to wax philosophical in between spurts of dialogue and action. As for dissection ruining stories, that really hasn't often been the case for me. It killed "Catcher in the Rye" but for every other book it's been more of an enriching experience. It may be that I have a *fantastic* teacher this year, but I'm also a lit nerd like no other.
Whoo. *points up* see what I mean about tangents?
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Saiyuki
Dec 13, 2004 3:33:57 GMT -5
Post by wildelamassu on Dec 13, 2004 3:33:57 GMT -5
Karot: "I'm also a lit nerd like no other."
...I think we've got a "drinking contest" on our hands of Kenren-and-Hakkai proportions. ^^;;
Is someone willing to be a bookie? *grins*
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Saiyuki
Dec 13, 2004 23:38:36 GMT -5
Post by treneka on Dec 13, 2004 23:38:36 GMT -5
hmm... Karot vs. WL in the world series of lit nerdieness. What would be the contest guidelines? *laughs*
Anyway, on the topic of pairings/favorite characters and whatnot, I almost hate to say it but I tend to be a sucker for interesting use of language and carefully worked plots. If a really well done work happens to involve pairings or characters in a way which is slightly askew of cannon, but perfectly concieved and excecuted within the work itself, I'll likely enjoy it.
That said, I don't really write pairings, but that's due to my own utter inability where depicting romance is concerned. I think there's a lot of love in the group, but I can't imagine how it would take a romantic outlet until someone else writes it up. One thing I've noticed, however, is the inherent loneliness in the concept of four adult men driving ever westward. There is no room in their journey for wives or children, girlfriends or boyfriends or any long term relationships at all, except with each other. I think perhaps it's to somehow mitigate this loneliness that folks write up pairing fics (and there are quite a few that I think do a beautiful job of it).
Well, I'm getting wordy again, so to wrap up: love to Karot for her excellent AU's and beautiful 58's. Love to Moose for the most poignant of smarm. Love to Dchan for disturbingly effective tensions between Goku and Homura and Sanzo (concurrent or consecutive). And love to Love in all its forms on this crazy drive westward. *tee hee*
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Saiyuki
Dec 15, 2004 20:38:02 GMT -5
Post by sorchafyre on Dec 15, 2004 20:38:02 GMT -5
::wide eyes:: Two of the most intelligent authors on the boards in a lit contest?? I've definately got to figure out how to make this happen. Love the 'drinking contest' metaphor... maybe I can do something with that.
::puts on Pooh cap:: Think, think, think.
Well, I'll come up with something, it's too delicious of an idea to pass on.
************** I'm firmly of the opinion that *every* fandom needs more 'deep friendship' stories. Even ones that are cannon shounen ai. As to whether Saiyuki is or not... that's debatable. I've heard some sound arguments on both sides of that particular debate, and it really comes down to personal opinion.
But no matter what, I think all of us would rather see a well-written general story than a mediocre story with a pairing.
Trenka, that was beautifully worded. Thank you for the perfect summary, I personally agree.
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Saiyuki
Dec 15, 2004 21:52:21 GMT -5
Post by KarotsaMused on Dec 15, 2004 21:52:21 GMT -5
WL: Yet another Breakroom reference from you. Hm. A lit "drinking" contest? Part of me quakes for I know I'll be bested...and yet there is a side of me that wants to know how I measure up. Hee, what a masochist I am. (I would also like to know who would be our Gojyo that s/he might get so inebriated from flying references as to pass out ) Treneka: First off, thank you *blush* And secondly, ooh. Inherent loneliness <- that phrase in and of itself is shiver-inducing. And I do agree, there is an angle there to be taken and most often it is not. I think fanauthors have the boys turn to each other for physical/emotional solace because they want to "make it better" ... heck knows I do I mean...just look at "TBC" (Weiss Kreuz fic by ...someone. (Bad Karot) It's in my favorites 'cause it's hilarious) and that just about sums it up.
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Saiyuki
Dec 18, 2004 23:57:52 GMT -5
Post by wildelamassu on Dec 18, 2004 23:57:52 GMT -5
Karot: I'm of the opinion that we underlap. ^^ The winner would be completely dependent upon the inclination of the questioner. I'd be downing umbrella-cocktails mixed from Modernists and poets (The T.S. Tornado?), and you'd have postmodernists (vodka shots) and fantasy (white wine). (Alcohol etiquette: Isn't it dangerous to mix?)
I'm sure there's some overlap, but...(okayyou'dwin*hides*).
This may be obvious, but I agree--anything well-written over anything that's not, regardless of its content.
Regarding the loneliness of the journey--I'm not so sure, with this particular group. Somehow, I think that they're less lonely now then when they started. ^^ But I agree in theory. *throws Steinbeck on the reference pile*
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Saiyuki
Dec 23, 2004 22:16:12 GMT -5
Post by KarotsaMused on Dec 23, 2004 22:16:12 GMT -5
Aah! Steinbeck! *hides under a table* Hee, I kid, but with every new episode I see I'm starting to agree with WL ... They're kinda like puzzle pieces that form a circle. S'long as there's something that requires all their focus to be on the center, if I'm allowed to run with the comparison ;D Heh, well if the results of the contest are circumstantial, we can call it a draw without sinking any nails in (Plus that, I'm fearing the hangover I'd have with that vodka + white wine equation. Lit nerds don't let Lit nerds throw Pratchett and Palahniuk on the same shelf! (Ooh. Alliteration, if not coherency. I'll give myself the benefit of the doubt.)) By the by, I have to fangirl over your little avatar - SOCUTE. Okay, I'm done now. ;D
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