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Post by kanshu on Aug 18, 2004 13:01:16 GMT -5
;D Okay, here, for your general annoyance, the ratings. ;D ff.net says: "Use the guide [above] to properly categorize your entry. If uncertain, always use the highest rating possible. FanFiction.Net does not allow the submission of NC-17 based entries and it is presented for reference only." Source: www.movieratings.com[G] General Audience : All ages admitted. This signifies that the film rated contains nothing most parents will consider offensive for even their youngest children to see or hear. Nudity, sex scenes, and scenes of drug use are absent; violence is minimal; snippets of dialogue may go beyond polite conversation but do not go beyond common everyday expressions. [PG] Parental Guidance Suggested : Some material may not be suitable for children. This signifies that the film rated may contain some material parents might not like to expose to their young children - material that will clearly need to be examined or inquired about before children are allowed to attend the film. Explicit sex scenes and scenes of drug use are absent; nudity, if present, is seen only briefly, horror and violence do not exceed moderate levels. [PG-13] Parents Strongly Cautioned : Some material may be inappropriate for children under 13. This signifies that the film rated may be inappropriate for pre-teens. Parents should be especially careful about letting their younger children attend. Rough or persistent violence is absent; sexually-oriented nudity is generally absent; some scenes of drug use may be seen; one use of the harsher sexually derived words may be heard. [R] Restricted-Under 17 requires accompanying parent or adult guardian : This signifies that the rating board has concluded that the film rated contains some adult material. Parents are urged to learn more about the film before taking their children to see it. An R may be assigned due to, among other things, a film's use of language, theme, violence, sex or its portrayal of drug use. [NC-17] No One 17 and Under Admitted (Not allowed on FanFiction.Net): This signifies that the rating board believes that most American parents would feel that the film is patently adult and that children age 17 and under should not be admitted to it. The film may contain explicit sex scenes, an accumulation of sexually-oriented language, or scenes of excessive violence. The NC-17 designation does not, however, signify that the rated film is obscene or pornographic.
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Post by kanshu on Aug 20, 2004 1:36:59 GMT -5
Question to all:
This are ratings created for visual material. As we all know, a written story is not quite the same like a movie or TV show.
So... What would a reasonable rating system for written material look like to work for you? What age cathegories would you set, what kind of content would fall into them? What other things you think are important for a rating system to work and be accepted?
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Post by BakaBokken on Aug 20, 2004 12:16:12 GMT -5
Hm... Good question. Usually this becomes an issue around the PG13-R-NC17 ratings.
Here's my two cents.
PG-13: Stories in this range should not contain sexual content or strong swearing. Of course, there is always allowance for some swearing and very mild sexual innuendo, but it can't go too far. Violence, but not extreme, explicitly described violence, also fits under this rating. Keep in mind that this is for ages 13+.
R: Stories in this range can have stronger language than PG-13, but still in some moderation. Sexual material is acceptable, as long as it's not explicitly described but rather is implied through other means of language. Heavier violence and plot lines also can fit under this category.
NC-17: Stories in this range can have very strong language, more explicit sexual material, more extreme violence, and far heavier plot line. Think of it as something anyone under the age of 17 really should NOT read.
Yeah, that's my 2 cents on these ratings... Feel free to disagree with me, since this is just my own opinion.
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Post by kanshu on Aug 21, 2004 0:27:52 GMT -5
Why would you set these particular age limits? What changes at these ages, compared to other ages like 12 or 16, to 'qualify' people for more mature stuff?
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Post by Salmastryon on Sept 2, 2004 13:07:35 GMT -5
In a way the ages are partially arbitrary. Since the law and many people needs to have a definitive borders and catagories drawn up, an age needs to be picked. Saying when a person is mental mature enough to handle the topic matter is just too subjective and would have to be determined on a case by case basis.
Using a scale such as appropriate for ages 16+ , 17+ or 18+ is just as valid. The reason why many fanfic writers use the film rating system is that, at least in the US, it has a universal authority and guidelines that are dictated.
In truth, some of the things that that will bumb you from one bracket to the other are quiet silly. For example, the color of blood, did you know that making the orc's blood black in LoR bumped it down a rating?
This same silliness can be seen in the age of consent laws. Keep in mind age of consent laws change from state to state in the US(sorry I'm not failiar with laws in other countries) so it can range anywhere from 15 to 21. Also in one state two seventeen year olds can have sex, but once one turns eighteen then have to weight till the other one turn eighteen otherwise it is statutary rape.
All in all it is rather arbitrary. So what to do? In my opinion, find out wha the laws are concerning topic matter in your area. Make sure whatever rating system you choose to use conforms to that at least. Other than that follow what you think is morally/ethically the right rating to put on it.
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Post by Me-Nuriko on Sept 2, 2004 13:53:17 GMT -5
I don't know about other countries, but in Sweden it's legal to have sex with person from the age of fifteen. If both are willing of course. But if a sixteen year old has sex with a fourteen year old and both are willing, not many would care. Most children at the age of seven know where babies come from. At the age of ten, I don't think there are any kids who doesn't know. Except maybe some Muslim children, or chilren from other strictly religious groups, but they are not many. We don't have more problem with teenage pregnancies than any other western country. One of my favorite comics is Wendy and Richard Pini's 'Elfquest'. There is a scene where the elves, knowing they are going to war, are having a last party where they also are having sex. It's not graphically drawn, but it's clear what's happening. Later the war is on. There is a lot of blood, and heads cut off, and other disturbing sights. What did people complain about? The sex of course. The violence in the war was okay, but not the friendship/love the elves felt for each other which made them having sex. Why is it that sex is such a terrible thing, while violence is shrugged at? I just don't get it.
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Post by kanshu on Sept 4, 2004 4:04:09 GMT -5
Well, the ratings are not just "sex" oriented. For example, if you go beyond a certain level of violence in a movie, it will go straight from a PG to and R, while with sex, you have a lot of shades. (at least, according to the site that cesmith so kindly supplied) So, outside of the rants that we all can do, what WOULD be a reasonable rating system? How would you group together stories appropriate for certain ages, what would be the content parameters? Keep in mind that the rating is supposed to help the watcher/reader make an easier decision on whether to watch/read something or not. This also brings up another question, which is 'parent responsibility'. If a rating says "Parential Guidance" PG, that means that the parents are supposed to be there with their (younger) kid to read the story. R strongly requests parential supervision. AND communication about what was seen/read, because there will be a lot of open questions. The rartings suggest that you *know* and get informed about the contents before allowing your kids to watch or read the material. I'd really like to know how many parents activily do keep an eye on what their kids are consuming when they go to the movies or read a story.
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Post by Me-Nuriko on Sept 4, 2004 10:40:16 GMT -5
Maybe there should be some sort of rating system with two different meanings. I mean something like G:R could mean no sex at all, but with quite a lot of violence, PG:G could mean some small amount of nudity or maybe a little kissing, but no violence at all, and so on. That way a person who doesn't like sex but doesn't mind violence, or the other way around, more accurate could chose after his/her choice.
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Post by cesmith on Sept 4, 2004 11:08:57 GMT -5
The only problem with that is that most movies don't have only one or the other, sex or violence. Also, the ratings for sex also includes varying degrees of undress, as well as, kissing, etc.., just as violence has it's different levels.
One reason I think people tend to overlook violence more than sex , espescially today, is that most people know what special effects produced the scenes. Even though they are more and more realistic looking, you know it's not real.
With a sex scene, the body you see is actually that of the actor/actress (or a body double). They are actually kissing, or simulating whatever the story calls for. Add to that, that so many religions and cultures have preached the sins of sex and nudity for so long and you have our current "take" on sex.
It's changed some over time, but between sex and violence, sex seems to be the most taboo.
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Post by Terra Fire on Sept 4, 2004 11:29:05 GMT -5
In regard to OptiMoose's last statement; I'd say that more time's than not, a child wont read something with their parent over their shoulder. They may wait for them to leave the area than start reading. Leaving the parent or who ever to catch them reading something that's not age appropriate. Which leads me to believe more than half the complaints come from that situation alone.
As for a more specific rating system, I'd have to agree somewhat with Me-Nuriko. I believe that there should be an in-between. Because of what Salmastryon said earlier, very small things can change the ratings dramatically. So much as a birthdate in a story or film can change it's aspects compleatly, especially in the US. I experienced first hand what that was like, and it wasn't good for anyone.
;}
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Post by Me-Nuriko on Sept 4, 2004 11:57:46 GMT -5
There is always the chance to divide the ratings into smaller units, but that would cause other problems. Is nudity worse than a kiss (how deep a kiss?), is a woman's breast worse than a man's buttocks? Is there a difference if the breasts are shown in a movie with a scene from the beach, or if the breasts are shown in a bedroom scene? Sounds silly, but that's what it would take to make the ratings more detailed. The same goes for the violence of course, and if we add other issues like language, it would be even more complicated.
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Post by Salmastryon on Sept 5, 2004 9:17:51 GMT -5
I always liked the premise behind the rating system on video games in the US. You have the rating combined with the reason why it got the rating. To put it another way, the rating plus warnings. The basic ratings are: EARLY CHILDHOODTitles rated EC - Early Childhood have content that may be suitable for ages 3 and older. Contains no material that parents would find inappropriate. EVERYONETitles rated E - Everyone have content that may be suitable for persons ages 6 and older. Titles in this category may contain minimal violence, some comic mischief and/or mild language. TEENTitles rated T - Teen have content that may be suitable for persons ages 13 and older. May contain violent content, mild or strong language, and/or suggestive themes. MATURETitles rated M - Mature have content that may be suitable for persons ages 17 and older. Titles in this category may contain mature sexual themes, more intense violence and/or strong language. ADULTS ONLYTitles rated AO - Adults Only have content suitable only for adults. Titles in this category may include graphic depictions of sex and/or violence. Adult Only products are not intended for persons under the age of 18. I'm not going to cut and paste the warnings here. Go to the official website here: esrb.com/esrbratings_guide.aspI hadn't realized there were specific ages associated with the rating until I looked up the actual descriptions on the site. Most the Mature games I have don't have the 17+ mature symbol. Instead, they just say mature. I like this system because at a quick glance you get a general idea of the level of "maturity" needed to view said item. Then, you can flip over to the back and find out why it was rated that high. Also, by using the letters it doesn't have a hard line based on ages. Examples of the ratings from some games: -Kingdom Hearts is rated E:Violence -R-Type Final is rated E:Fantasy Violence -Prince of Persia is rated T:Blood, Suggestive Themes, Violence -Onimusha 2 is rated M:Violence, Blood and Gore Of course, one thing to keep in mind is that video games are rated volunteerily. Also, while technically store owners shouldn't sell mature games to kids, they are not explicitly prevented from doing so by law. My local game shop does check ages. The store owner has had parents yell at her because she won't sell a mature game to a middle schooler. Which brings us back to the whole parental monitor thing. The game rating system at least gives one some idea why it got that rating. This allows one to have a better basis to make the decision. Personally, my parents always checked things out before we watched them. Me and my brother really had no desire to watch the heavier stuff when we growning up. The clone scene in The Last Starfighter scared me enough thank-you very much. I could do without going to some of the gore flicks my contempories were watching.
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Post by Terra Fire on Sept 5, 2004 16:16:59 GMT -5
Let's start with the easiest (in my own opinion), with language. By the age of ten, most children have heard most of the basic profanities by one way of another, and perhaps know what half of them mean. I think that stories with very mild language should be rated PG : PG-13. Stories with more of an in-depth use of language, should be rated PG-13. I think that stories with of a more sexual reference should be rated PG-13:R.
As for nudeness, and innocent showing of the butt should be G : PG, no matter what gender. For breast that are used for an educated reference, which could be under PG with parental guidance. If a woman was wairing a bathing suite that left very to the imagination, it should be under PG-13:R. If breast were being referred to in a sexual manor, I believe that it should be under R. As for other parts of the body, which again, wasn't being used for education reference, should be under R: NC-17.
Kissing? There are many ways this can be seen. A chaste mouth kiss should have no higher than a PG rating. Innocent 'making out' kissing should be under PG : PG-13. Exotic kissing with most likely other intentions should be rated PG-13:R. Which leads me to sex. Sex being used for education should be PG : PG-13, with parental guidance. Stories with not that much graphic sex should be rated R. Stories with very graphic sex should be rated R:NC-17.
Now, with violence. Others opinions on violence vary, especially in the US. I believe that the showing of blood, no matter what color it is, should get no higher than a PG-13 rating. However, the cause of blood could be what sets the rating higher. Lets say for example that someone is consistently stabbed in the chest with a butcher knife, then the story would be rated R. However, if someone was shot in the chest and there was the same amount of blood, it would be rated PG-13. In my own opinion, I don't think it really matters, killing is killing and no matter how it's done, it should all have a rating of PG-13. Rape should have no lower a rating than R, that's just plain and simple. Matter's of violence in child and family abuse should be under PG-13:R.
Anyway, these are just my opinions.
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Post by kanshu on Sept 5, 2004 23:43:16 GMT -5
VG Terra: I see one huge problem, and that is precision. How much exactly is "little graphic sex"? Where do you draw the line to "too much"? Just think about the problems everyone now has with saying "This story goeds into PG-13, that one into R, and that would be NC-17.
ANother one is that it's quite complicated for a system. Keep in mind that it has to be understood by younger people as well as older people. Complicated things don't get accepted easily, and as such, get misused.
Salma: I think that the "titles" of the video ratings are very usable. I could be the base for a good rating system for fiction.
General thoughts about sex/violence: WAtching something is one thing. Reading a completely different. When watching, your eyes see. When reading, your mind follow whatever thought patterns your authors dish you. You can shoot someone, and the act in itself stays the same. You can have sex, and the act of penetration will be the same. What differs is the emotion behind it, and the intend of the author. How the characters are portraid - and that can range from quite sickening and cheerful jubilations about how great rape is (by people who don't know a thing about the topic, as you can fairly easy tell by their stories), to the chilling description of what is going on in the mind of a bestial killer or rapist. Maybe a good parameter is the usage of sex and violence as a plot device. - Does it dominate and carry the plot, describe everything in precise detail? Is it the sole bane of the story's existence? Is it reduced to the neccessary details to get across the author's point?
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Post by kanshu on Sept 6, 2004 5:51:16 GMT -5
Okay, here's the rating system from Germany for movie- and TV productions. Source: www.spio-fsk.de/3FRAMES/ALT_FRG.HTMSuitable for everyoneSmall children experience 'moving pictures' unfiltered and spontanious. Their intake of information is organised mainly episodic, cognitive. Abstracting abilities are practically non-existent. 'Dark' scenes, rapid sequence of cuts or a loud/threatening soundtrack/noises can scare or confuse. Children up to the age of 6 years identify themselves completely with the diplayed action and the characters. The level of identification is especially high in threatening situations. Violence, persuit scenes or partner/relationship conflicts create fears that the child can't deal with on its own. A quick and positive resolution of situations is therefore extremly important. Suitable for age 6+Beginning at the age of 6, children improve their ability for cognitive interpretation of sensory information. However, there are huge difference in the developement of children of the age group 6 to 11. Around the age of 9, children are able to tell apart fictional and real stories. This allows them to experience the movie abstracted from themselves. Younger children still are focussed on the episodic, emotional aspects of vieweing. A 6-year old is fully captured by the plot of the movie, suffers and feels fear with the identification figures. Tension and threatening scenes can be dealt with better, but these scenes can neither be to long, nor to intense. A positive resolve of situations is a prior goal here as well. Suitable for ages 12+Teenagers of this age group have the ability to abstract themselves from the plot and access it rationally. First knowledge of genres is existing. A higher emotional intenseness, as it is normal in Thriller or SciFi movies, can be handled. Problematic, however, is the stream of images from hard and violent action movies, which still can't be dealt with properly by the teenager alone. In the age range between 12 and 15 years, the teenagers are in puberty. It's a difficult phase where the self-identity is establish, and high insecurity and vulnerability add to it. Especially movies that makes the teenager want to identify with "heroes" who present an anti-social, destructive or violent role model, are potentially dangerous. Movies that handle social topics and problems in a serious way are perfectly suitable for this age group and are considered important for the mental and moral developement. Suitable ages 16+In the age group between 16 and 18, a developed media competence can be expected. Socially harmful messages remain a problem, however. Movies that glorify violence, are diametrically to an equal relationship between the genders, discriminate certain groups, or reduce sexuality to a pure 'drive satisfaction' (Translater's not: aka PWP or Porn) are not allowed in this age group. Another type of content that gets close and careful examination (TN: before being allowed as suitable for this age group) are drug consumption, political radicalism and racism. Not for Minors (Suitable age 18+)Everything else... plus, add in tons of legal stuff.
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